Jump to content
Dubman

Asking Advice on custom built system

Recommended Posts

I've gotten a job that is paying me well enough to allow me to buy a fast system for dual monitors and doing 3D drawing. This is what I am looking towards at this time. I'm looking for any advice on the components listed below.

Power Supply: 850 Watt EVGA SuperNOVA G3

Motherboard: ASUS ROG X399 Zenith Extreme

System Cooling: ORIGIN FROSTBYTE 240 Sealed Liquid Cooling System for TR4 Socket

Processors: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1920X 12-Core

Graphics Card #1 - Graphic Cards: Single 8GB EVGA GeForce GTX 1080

Graphics Card #2 - Graphic Cards: Single 8GB EVGA GeForce GTX 1080

Memory: 32GB G.Skill TridentZ 3000MHz (2 X 16GB)

Operating System: MS Windows 10 Professional

Operating System Drive #1 (Primary): 1TB Samsung 850 Evo Series

 

Thanks for any advice on this!

Share this post


Link to post

Vectorworks won't be able to use multiple GPUs, even if they are linked in SLI unfortunately, however having two shouldn't hurt VW if you need them for other applications, as long as SLI is not enabled. Otherwise this seems an excellent configuration.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks Jim, I was thinking the two GPU's would help with dual monitors in using the floating view pane. IF two monitors can be used with one GPU and with the more powerful processor helping with the flaoting view panes, especially doing 3D work, I ca save money using one powerful GPU.

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your advice on this!

Share this post


Link to post

my other question would be 64 GB of memory really help VW more than 32 GB, for as now is the time get get as much as I can, if it is going to help.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Dubman said:

my other question would be 64 GB of memory really help VW more than 32 GB, for as now is the time get get as much as I can, if it is going to help.

 

Thanks


It would ONLY help if in your workflow you were already maxing out your memory, however in the large majority of cases 16GB is fine, 32GB is plenty and 64GB is more than enough. However, if you won't be able to add more in later for purchasing/company policy reasons, it's always safest to go higher. RAM is not particularly expensive right now compared to most other computer components.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Dubman said:

Operating System Drive #1 (Primary): 1TB Samsung 850 Evo Series

I strongly suggest to get the just released 860 Evo series instead of the 850 Evo. The 860 reportedly has much longer lifetime (i.e. double or triple the number of writes) as well as better performance and the price should be about the same.

 

Or (copied from a reply in a similar topic a while ago):
For a data storage working drive (for active projects) you may also want to consider the Transcend SSD370S 1TB drive as it has a quite high write endurance (better than almost all other SSD drives) and is supposedly among the fastest "normal" SSD cards and the next best thing besides a M.2 PCIE SSD.  If you are going to consider this one then make sure it is the 370S  and not the 370 (without S) as the latter is an different SSD drive series performance and endurance wise.

Edited by Art V

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you Art, I did not see this my research on best system for VW. . I was focusing more on the GPU & processor. Very helpful!

I'm looking to make this configuration last for more new versions of VW.

Edited by Dubman

Share this post


Link to post

I hope you will overclock your system a little. Otherwise you would'nt need the water cooling system. With the Asus board this will be very easy to do.

If not you may consider if you realy need this expensive mainboard. In tests the ASRock X399 Taichi has (very little) better benchmark results (but it's not that well equipped) and costs about 200.- less. I just ordered the parts for a very similar system but took the ASRock X399 Taichi. With the saved money i got the Threadripper 1950X with 16 Cores. It means about 30% faster rendertime with renderworks. If you don't get the two Geforce GTX1080, you coul'd buy one GTX 1080Ti wich is a little faster (about 20%) than the GTX 1080 and has 3GB more VRAM.

If you have the money you coul'd also buy an M.2 SSD instead of a SATA SSD. You will have a little faster loading/boot-up time. In my case I took a smaller but M.2 SSD.

 

Here is the built i'm waiting for:

 

AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1950X

MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti GAMING X TRIO

AsRock X399 Taichi

2x Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 16GB 3000MHz

WD Black (256GB, M.2)

Noctua Cooler NH-U9 TR4-SP3

Fractal Define XL R2 (Big Tower)

Edited by herbieherb

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you herbieherb, this info is very useful, no I do not plan on over clocking, I'm trying to get the most powerful system that I do not have to over clock and will last a few years & many newer versions of VectorWorks. I am now a Set Designer on a TV series & do mostly the 2D construction drawings with some 3D. With my current system the 3D work really starts to slow it down. Others use SketchUp for the 3D work on the sets to get story board like images for directors approval & with a powerful system I want to show them how VectorWorks is better than SU & to be able to produce the 2D construction drawings for the same file that had the 3D work. Right now I can slow down VW with just 2D construction drawings I need to do. I already have been pricing systems with one graphics card with the GTX 1080Ti. I also want to use two monitors so I can use the floating view ports with slowing down the software. I will price another system with the ASRock X399 & the Threadripper 1950X with 16 Cores.

Thanks again!

Share this post


Link to post

Most graphic cards in this price segment are able to handle up to 4 or more displays (technically, not necessarily performance-related). Do consider that UHD displays need a way better graphic card than full-hd. Especially if you want to use two of them. Right now i use two Full-HD displays and im very happy with it (i will not change to UHD with my new built for good reasons). These two full-hd displays have 4'147'200 pixels, the two UHD already have 16'588'800 pixel. This means your graphic-card will have a hell lot more to do but you won't notice it in your final work. Your whole hardware would work only on showing you a great picture and it will not help you to handle a more detailed model.

As you mentioned right, every system can be slowed down with 2D lines only don't bother this will also be possible with your new system. Just draw one single line and duplicate it 50'000 times (safe your work before you try). On the other hand if you draw the same amount of lines with a hatch this is no problem for vectorworks. So always try to draw with as less information as possible. This even means that good drawn 3D Models work sometimes smoother than chaotic and overloaded 2D drawings of the same work. With your built you will be able to handle veery complex drawings with vectorworks.

Edited by herbieherb
clarify

Share this post


Link to post
On 16.2.2018 at 5:17 PM, herbieherb said:

Here is the built i'm waiting for:

 

AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1950X

Fractal Define XL R2 (Big Tower)

 

 

Just want mention that the new Fractal Design define R6 will now offer space for eATX boards.

So even the larger Asus Threadripper Boards will fit in.

 

Share this post


Link to post

So now this is the system I'm pricing thru Dell

 

Alienware Area 51 R6
AMD Ryzen(TM) Threadripper 1950X (16-Core, 40MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.6GHz on all cores)
Windows 10 Pro (64bit)
Area 51 1500W Chassis
NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) GTX 1080Ti with 11GB GDDR5X
32GB Dual Channel HyperX(TM) DDR4 XMP at 2933MHz
1TB M.2 PCIe SSD
 This should get my by for a few years & be able to push VR goggles in the future

Thanks for everybody advice & suggestions!

Share this post


Link to post

There are some differences between the GTX 1080 Ti of the different manufacturer. The differences are mainly in clock rate and cooling. This means the overall speed is different (+-5%). And some make more noise than others and may have better or worse cooling. The quality of the components also differs and finally there is often a huge difference in the price. Here is an example that lists some graphic cards with different framerates but the same graphics chip GTX 1080 Ti. Note that the original Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti is on the lower end of the list. You may have to read some tests to find out which card suits you best.

 

 

grafik.png

Edited by herbieherb

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks but to late, already placed the order, from what I researched the TI will do fine along with the other components.

I'll be happy to not slow down VW with small 2D drawing file with two PDF's in design layers & my new work on design layer over top with final sheet layer viewports.

 

Thanks though!

 

Share this post


Link to post

VW is not slow in 3D or 2D in general, in my opinion. It's slow when it comes to the tools and their settings. Opening a space tool dialog takes ages, railing tool makes you take a nap and the stair tool sends you to the geriatric department. Just to name a few. It doesn't utilise all cores I suspect since I only see 12.5% cpu utilisation rate.

 

One would think that complex 2d or 3d zooming etc would be a difficult task, but no, it's some of the simple tools that calculate....something. Room for code improvement?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Every year I assemble several computers optimized for Vectorworks and upgrade older systems. This year we decided on only one new building, which cost about twice as much as our usual computers. This computer should be optimized for fast rendering with renderworks, but should also work properly with very large/detailed projects in OpenGL and 2D mode. Elsewhere I promised you a report about this computer. So here he it is.

 

The whole system looks like this:

    CPU: AMD Threadripper 1950X (TR4, 3.40GHz, Unlocked) 1'030.– CHF
    GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti GAMING X TRIO (11GB, High End) 911.– CHF
    Mainboard: AsRock X399 Taichi (TR4, AMD X399, ATX) 380.– CHF
    RAM: G.Skill Trident Z RGB F4-3200C14Q-32GTZRX (4x, 8GB, DDR4-3200, DIMM 288) 652.– CHF
    Cooling: Fractal Celsius S36 145.– CHF
    Case: Fractal Define R5 Black (Midi Tower) 143.– CHF
    Power Supply: Corsair RM750x (750W) 125.– CHF
    HDD1: WD Black (256GB, M.2 2280) 116.– CHF
    HDD2: WD Blue (2TB, 3.5", Desktop) 74.– CHF


Total price (without assembly): 3576.– CHF
(Daily prices in Swiss Francs at digitec.ch)


CPU: AMD Threadripper 1950X (TR4, 3.40GHz, Unlocked) 1'030.– CHF

A pleasure for rendering. In this price range anyway. The 16 cores come into their own in renderworks. Renderings, which take one hour for comparison computers with 4 core processors, are finished here in 15 minutes. Especially if you do a lot of test renderings it is an incredible comfort gain whether you wait almost 10min or a little more than 2min until the rendering is finished. In normal 2D operations you don't really notice the many cores. More operations are programmed with multi-core capability with each Vectorworks version. At the moment, however, one hardly notices anything of it. Conclusion: For all those who render often and in high quality brilliant. In 2D and OpenGL mode, however, you won't notice any difference.

 

GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti GAMING X TRIO (11GB, High End) 911.– CHF

Can be easily overclocked thanks to the three coolers. Runs extremely quiet even under full load and with OC. My card runs stable with +65MHz GPU clock frequency and +750MHz memory clock. This indicates a boost GPU clock of 2012 MHz and 12528MHz memory clock (most programs show half the clock rate here, since DDR RAM). Maximum temperature under full load is still 60°C.
But this is also where the greatest savings potential lies. In my opinion, the 1070 would have performed almost the same for the computer and my two HD screens. The 1080Ti has two advantages over the 1070:
Faster/larger memory with double bandwidth: Large projects that need a lot of memory in OpenGL benefit from the fact that the OpenGL display is faster/flowier. However, the threadripper processor with its relatively slow single-thread performance seems to slow down OpenGL performance extremely. This only applies to OpenGL, with other engines the graphics card can sweat a lot, so with this system, too, it delivers maximum performance.
Those who work at very high resolution (one or more UHD screens etc.) or make high-resolution OpenGL renderings will probably notice the difference between 1070 and 1080Ti also in Vectorworks, all others are already served with the 1070.
Conclusion: for my two HD screens the cheaper GeForce GTX 1070 would have done the same. If I have time, I will swap the cards between the mentioned computers, see what it is exactly.

 

Mainboard: AsRock X399 Taichi (TR4, AMD X399, ATX) 380.– CHF

Very good value for a TR4 board, good equipment and very good performance in tests.

 

RAM: G.Skill Trident Z RGB F4-3200C14Q-32GTZRX (4x, 8GB, DDR4-3200, DIMM 288) 652.– CHF

Since the desired RAM was not available for a long time, I had various configurations running until the right RAM was finally delivered. So I can say:
1. buy at least 4 bars to use all available bandwidth (the Threadripper processor supports Quad-Channel, which should be used as well). The difference between two and four bars is about 20% processor power.
2. The Threadripper benefits enormously from low latencies and fast clock speeds. It is therefore worth investing in very expensive RAM. The difference between 4x2130MHz with 18-18-18 latencies and 4x3200MHz with 14-14-14 latency is again about 20% processor power.
With the right RAM you can almost double the processor power. Saving money here would be a big mistake. The 400 CHF extra price compared to cheap RAM was the best money invested on the whole computer. Pay attention to the article numbers on the RAM - they are exactly the same. Only the article number (here F4-3200C14Q-32GTZRX) gives information about latencies, clock rate etc. At G.Skill the ones with the ending ZRX are optimized for the threadripper and much more expensive than the ones with the ending TZR.

 

Cooling: Fractal Celsius S36 145.– CHF

Since the processor emits an unusual 180 watts of pure heat, proper cooling is mandatory. AMD has certified extra cooling systems for the Threadripper, you can read on their site. Don't underestimate the cooling, the processor heats extremely under full load and Renderworks keeps the processor under full load in continuous operation. While rendering I have a heater under my desk. Wink I opted for the Fractal Celsius S36 compact water cooling system. Very easy to install, no tinkering, three fans for quiet operation. Make sure that the heat sink with three fans needs 40cm space on the housing. The housing therefore needs a correspondingly large air outlet.

 

Case: Fractal Define R5 Black (Midi Tower) 143.– CHF

Super equipment, enough space for compact water cooling. Wonderful well thought-out openings for the cable guide. Enough space for quite comfortable assembly. Only under the heat sink of the water cooling I had some trouble to plug in the connectors at the upper end of the mainboard. But left without complaining.

Power Supply: Corsair RM750x (750W) 125.– CHF

Very convenient to install, as all cables are also modular on the power supply unit, i.e. can be plugged in separately. At the end there is no superfluous cable clutter in the tower.

 

HDD 1: WD Black (256GB, M.2 2280) 116.– CHF

Faster and more expensive than a normal SSD because of the M.2 slot. But it pays off for the operating system and the programs. For data storage I have a normal second hard disk and most of the data is on our server. That's why the 256GB are short, but they are absolutely sufficient for my purpose.

 

HDD 2: WD Blue (2TB, 3.5", Desktop) 74.– CHF

Inexpensive and absolutely fast enough for storing large amounts of data for archiving.

 

Why is the computer only half as expensive as an iMac Pro with comparable rendering performance (Vecotorworks/Renderworks)?

On the one hand, the very high-quality screen is missing in my price list. On the other hand, not all the hardware on my computer had to be pressed into the narrow screen. This gives the hardware enough space for heat dissipation. In iMac Pro, the processor and graphics card have been throttled, and the RAM is clocked very slowly. My computer has very fast RAM, processor and graphics card are moderately overclocked. But the biggest cost driver for iMac Pro is the extremely expensive hardware, which Vectorworks users simply don't need. ECC RAM, for example, is essential for server applications, scientific calculations, etc., but without advantages for Vectorworks. The Xeon processor is top for multithreading, unfortunately it is clocked very slowly and even slower than the standard in the iMac Pro. The minimum 1TB SSD are great, a combination of a large conventional hard disk and a small (256,512MB) and fast SSD is simply much cheaper. The iMac Pro's professional graphics card is designed for work that fills the VRAM many times over. It has very much, very expensive, fast, VRAM built-in. In Vectorworks it's mostly idle, unless you render in OpenGL. For high res video editing, for example, the graphics card is indispensable. I don't want to talk down the computer. It is absolutely worth the money if you belong to the target group (scientists, video artists, etc.). You can't get a computer with truly comparable iMac Pro hardware cheaper anywhere. However, a computer with similar performance in Vectorworks costs only half the price.

 

upshot
For the projected task (as fast as possible Renderworks-Renermaschine) the computer is top. Coffee times have reduced noticeably. 😁 For OpenGL, however, we have stronger and much cheaper PCs in the office. At the expense of (in everyday work hardly noticeable) OpenGL performance you get 4 times the rendering speed. But the computer costs about twice as much as I would spend for a normal Vectorworks workstation.

Translated with deepl.com

Edited by herbieherb
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for the write-up, it is good to read real world experiences and to some extent it confirms what I was expecting and it provides some additional info to keep in mind. Still I would get ECC RAM when getting a Threadripper, it is approximately 20% more expensive over here than regular RAM but if you are doing those very large renders with lots of memory activity the error correction it provides might be worth it based on what I have read. It will not prevent all crashes as it does depend on the cause and there are things that ECC won't catch.

Western Digital Blue drives are good drives by themselves, but their data throughput is a bit too slow for large working files. For archiving they would be more than adequate. I've noticed that a faster working harddisk drive can make a moderate but noticeable improvement in user experience when working with really large and complex files that need to be loaded/read from the harddisk, provided the graphics card and memory can match the requirements. A fast SSD would be even better as working drive next to a SSD as system drive.

 

AMD just released the 2xxx versions of the Ryzen processors with faster core clock speeds to match the Intel processors for single core performance while outperforming then in multi-core performance, I expect the new Threadrippers to follow in the near future.

Share this post


Link to post

Since ECC modules are not geared for performance and the threadripper profits really a lot from fast latencies and clock rate i wouldn't buy ECC for this build. Besides I have never been able to safely trace a renderworks crash back to a memory error before. With render-tasks i'd rate performance over safety.

The only issues I have regularly, happen when I do multiple renderings and the RAM fills up completely because of memory leaks.

Share this post


Link to post

I often had aborting overnight renderings in the past with some non-ECC machines.

I don't want that again and never had aborting renderings with ECC,

so for me stability over power.

 

I also would never overclock my components (and give up power saving features)

Share this post


Link to post

Looks like it depends on the way we use our Rendermachines.

Memory errors are relatively rare. On a typical render computer it happens about every three days that a wrong bit comes out. So if someone doesn't run the computer overnight, they will have it about once a week. If you're lucky, it has no effect on the current task. If you're unlucky, it leads to a crash. If you don't run the computer 24/7, you may have a crash about once a month due to memory-error. Of course, it looks different if you render overnight, then one crash really sucks, because you lose a whole day's time.
In my work I rarely have renderings that last more than an hour and I practically never render overnight. A crash a month is bearable for me if I have 20% more performance.

Share this post


Link to post

I wouldn't mind if it would mean just a few Pixels at a wrong color.

But when I need a bunch of perspektives the next day, it doesn't

help when I start my Render Takes over night and it stops after

2 renders.

 

Not sure if ECC helps much there too but I never have more than

1-2 Kernel Panics on macOS per year and I normally real reboot

my machine only when an OS update needs to.

Not sure how that would work on Windows 10 (?)

Share this post


Link to post

Sometimes only single pixels would be miscalculated and sometimes a memory-error leads to a crash.
ECC is actually made for a system to do faultless calculations over a very long period of time. Basically, the longer a calculation takes, the more precise it should be and the more memory you need for it, the sooner you use ECC.

What I noticed with several rendertasks is that the memory is not completely freed after each rendering. There's been a memory-leak in Renderworks for years. Depending on memory usage I can only do 5-10 renderings before the memory is full. Vectorworks will not crash, but more renderings will take forever.

Share this post


Link to post

I have seen Memory Leaks with VW or C4D+VRAY in the past.

(Early VW 2016/2017s ?)

Not directly with rendering tasks.

But thought that would have been gone, at least I didn't notice recently.

Share this post


Link to post

The error was recently confirmed to me by the (german) support. They could reproduce the whole thing, but couldn't tell when it would be fixed.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×
×
  • Create New...