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Top/plan panning/zooming sluggish in VW2018

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One of 2017's selling points was a new graphics module which was to make viewing large 2d drawings smoother and faster. I think it did.

 

But I'm finding that this has gone in 2018. Zooming in and out is slow and jerky, like it's really struggling with the file size.

 

If I try opening the same file in 2017 it's noticeably better.

 

Are others finding the same?

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Check you VW Preferences. Display tab. What do you have your Navigation Graphics set for? If it is not Best Performance, try that and see if it helps.

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Yup it's already set for best performance.

 

I've yet to find any problem that changing that setting makes any difference to, but thanks anyway!

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Double check your video cards and make sure that VW is running on the highest power card. I know that some of the laptops have multiple video modes. I don't know about the Mac Pro.

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No Intel spare GPU in a cMac Pro.

But good question anyway.

So what GPU is currently used ?

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Yes, fairly sure there's only one GPU in my mac pro.

And it's one that I chose with help from the VW guidelines at the time - AMD FirePro D700 3072 MB

 

The fact that the same file is OK in VW2017 suggests to me that the problem is in the software rather than hardware.

Edited by line-weight

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Are you sure about that card name ?

I don't find a FirePro D700 from the past.

Only the D700 from the nMac Pro (2013). And that card has 6 GB VRAM.

And a nMac Pro will always have 2 of D300s, D500s or D700s.

But doesn't mind as no App beside Final Cut will use more than one of these.

 

It is only relevant to Notebooks that have an Intel Onboard graphic solution

beside their larger more energy consuming discrete GPU, which is too weak

for VW needs but may be assigned to VW by default accidentally,

to save energy.

 

But your signature tells you have a 2009 classic cMac Pro.

So you will not have any weak onboard graphic system. But it is still possible that

the discrete GPU you really have, could be old and too weak anyway.

So it would be helpful to know the exact name of that card.

Which you will find in :  > About this Mac

 

In case you have any 2013 nMac Pro, possible GPUs are in VW specs and GPU

capability itself will not be the reason for your problem.

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Yes, it's a 2009 cMac Pro but a refurbed one, so not the same specs as the original.

 

In fact the graphics card is

 

AMD R9-280X (3GB)

 

Which for some reason comes up in the "about this mac" as a Firepro D700. I think it is maybe very similar? Worked all this out at the time I was buying it but have now forgotten the details!

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It may no more be the fastest card but at least the VRAM is over min specs.

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On 12/15/2017 at 5:26 AM, line-weight said:

But I'm finding that this has gone in 2018. Zooming in and out is slow and jerky, like it's really struggling with the file size.

 

If I try opening the same file in 2017 it's noticeably better.

 

Are others finding the same?

 

I'm finding the same, though for me 2017 seemed worse than 2016, and 2018 seems yet again much worse.  Especially on sheet layers; in some cases, everything simply disappears from section viewports while zooming.

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Here the same as well, and we are on PC's.

 

Graphics performance is poor and there are a lot of issues like walls not showing at all, until one zooms in an out a bit. We've tried all performance settings to no avail. Same issue across different graphics cards, desktops and laptops.

 

Something funny going on with the graphics perfomance in 2018.

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Just read this post. I think it may be similar or related to my post on Screen Refresh / Lag time. VW 2018 isn't up to 2017 on some issues. I get the feeling the most stable release was 2014, it certainly booted faster. 9_9 

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Posted (edited)

Recently I have the same issue with VW2018 being excruciatingly slow with selecting/dragging objects. The only one clear common denominator I have noticed is that it mostly happens with files that were created in VW versions before VW2017. Even VW2017 is very slow with such files. When I export the file back to VW2016 it just flies at top speed compared to VW2018. Unfortunately at some point I need the VW2017/VW2018 features that are missing in VW2016 so eventually I have to go back to VW2018 (as VW2017 isn't that much better anyway).

 

With files started in VW2017 and/or VW2018 the issue is much less (so far, knocking on wood now), though that could in part have to do with the content itself even though it is just 2D geometry so no fancy 3D stuff.

One thing we (local support desk and I) noticed was that the GPU us hardly or not at all used with graphics intensive operations (e.g. lots of 2D objects needing to be moved), so perhaps there is something amiss with the VGM and its communication with the GPU? Another thing that happens is that when selecting objects and trying to move them the whole navigation palette classes are refreshing/rebuilding each time.

Edited by Art V
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Art V said:

noticed was that the GPU us hardly or not at all used with graphics intensive operations (e.g. lots of 2D objects needing to be moved),

 

I understood the OpenGL settings in VW like this :

Compatibility mode = no GPU at all, CPU only

Middle mode = GPU acceleration as it was pre VW 2017

Performance mode = full GPU acceleration including new 2D acceleration

that came with VW 2017

 

Not sure if moving objects really needs the GPU or maybe it is so easy for the GPU

that you don’t see it working ?

Edited by zoomer

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Its interesting how many forum threads there are about this. I had some issued in VW2017 and did a fair amount of switching between the various graphics compatibility modes. I also investigated a few other things on my system to see if they were causing some of the problems. Here's a couple of things that I looked at and changed -

 

- Dropbox syncing and Time Machine backups. Both were over wireless and things were better when I turned them off. In the end I bought a Thunderbolt network adaptor and I keep wireless off unless I'm on the road. It has made a large difference to my system performance in general and particularly to VW.

- Free hard drive space. It turns out this can particularly be a problem if you are using a solid state drive.

 

Specific to VW, I think many of my VW2017 problems were caused by bugs in the new graphics module. Things were definitely worse when bringing older files forward into VW2017. Some of those bugs seem to have carried over to VW2018 (some highlighting being offset for perspective sheet layer viewports for example) but graphics wise I've found VW2018 so much more stable. I thought I would have trouble, given that my MacBook is older and only has 1gb of VRAM, but so far its been very stable. I work entirely in 3d and my conversion resolution is set to high or very high so I am working with a fair amount of geometry.

 

It sounds to me like there are other factors in play here given that so many  people are having issues.

 

Kevin

 

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16 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

It sounds to me like there are other factors in play here given that so many  people are having issues.

 

Kevin

 

I think (sadly) that Apple has let down professional designers by focusing on becoming a consumer goods company & forgotten those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years. I was told over the holidays that I could swap my Graphics card but the mother board would have to be replaced to do so, so why not just trade in for a new machine that's only marginally more advanced? JimmE isn't happy & I've been Mac Guy since well before the Scully debacle. 

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8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I think (sadly) that Apple has let down professional designers by focusing on becoming a consumer goods company & forgotten those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years. I was told over the holidays that I could swap my Graphics card but the mother board would have to be replaced to do so, so why not just trade in for a new machine that's only marginally more advanced? JimmE isn't happy & I've been Mac Guy since well before the Scully debacle. 

Jim, what is the graphics card in your MacBook Pro? Which generation is it?

 

Kevin

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Hi Kevin, It's 2 yrs old MacBook Pro & it has:

 Intel HD Graphics 4000 1536 MB

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Hi Kevin, It's 2 yrs old MacBook Pro & it has:

 Intel HD Graphics 4000 1536 MB

 

Ah.... Its the integrated graphics chips that cause everyone trouble. I think I have the same generation as yours but mine is the 15" version with the dedicated graphics option as well as the integrated one. I set my preferences so it only uses the dedicated graphics option. If you do end up upgrading make sure whatever you choose has a dedicated graphics chip rather than the integrated Intel type. You will find the performance difference night and day with VW.

 

Kevin

 

Edited by Kevin McAllister

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On 1/3/2018 at 12:01 AM, zoomer said:

 

I understood the OpenGL settings in VW like this :

Compatibility mode = no GPU at all, CPU only

Middle mode = GPU acceleration as it was pre VW 2017

Performance mode = full GPU acceleration including new 2D acceleration

that came with VW 2017

 

Not sure if moving objects really needs the GPU or maybe it is so easy for the GPU

that you don’t see it working ?

If it would be easy for the GPU it would be quite a bit faster like with VW2016. It is not just moving large numbers of objects that is sluggish, even moving one single simple symbol (circle with small text field to ID objects with a number or letter). Moving such a simple symbol should not be sluggish at all (In VW2018 it takes waiting for seconds to see it is selected and then more (10+) seconds to see it move instead of just select and move almost instantly as it does in VW0216). So something is very wrong somewhere and it seriously impacts working against deadlines if you need to make last-minute changes just before a deadline.

Edited by Art V
corrected VW2017 to VW2018

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On 1/4/2018 at 4:45 AM, Kevin McAllister said:

 

Ah.... Its the integrated graphics chips that cause everyone trouble. I think I have the same generation as yours but mine is the 15" version with the dedicated graphics option as well as the integrated one. I set my preferences so it only uses the dedicated graphics option. If you do end up upgrading make sure whatever you choose has a dedicated graphics chip rather than the integrated Intel type. You will find the performance difference night and day with VW.

 

 

My setups use a dedicated GPU and the desktop is just downright as slow as a snail in a tar pit when e.g. trying to select and move one really simple symbol (as mentioned in my reply to zoomer), the issue is worse in VW2018  with drawings started in VW versions before VW0217 and less worse with drawings started in VW 2017 or VW 2018. There is no really complicated geometry in the drawing, just a lot of geometry, but that should only affect selecting/moving/modyfing a lot of geometry at once but not selecting and moving just one simple object.
If VW2016 just flies and reacts instantaneous compared to VW2018 on the same hardware and the same drawing (even when saved back to VW2016 from VW2018) then to me this indicates there is something very wrong somewhere with VW2018 (I think it is an issue with the VGM or it actually requires much more power than the hardware specs recommendations).

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I think VW should acknowledge this as an issue. It seems to be something that many people are having a problem with.

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I think VW should acknowledge this as an issue. It seems to be something that many people are having a problem with.

 

From the forums it seems like there is something going on. I feel like NV should provide some example files for users to try. Different people are using different workflows (eg. mine is entirely 3d) and the problems seem to manifest differently. I've never had an issue with too much geometry but then those issues seem to relate to too much 2d geometry and the changes to the Top/Plan engine in VW2017 and VW2018. At least if there were some standardized files to test on your own machine where NV said "this should work fine on a machine with x amount of graphic processing" it would be a starting point to rule out your machine and move on to troubleshooting a specific file.

 

Kevin

 

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I think VW should acknowledge this as an issue. It seems to be something that many people are having a problem with.

 

1 minute ago, Kevin McAllister said:

From the forums it seems like there is something going on.


Apologies, I thought I had done so elsewhere.

There is ABSOLUTELY something going on with laggy or erratic panning, zooming, moving performance in Vectorworks at the moment and it is being tracked. However, it isn't a single issue, hardware, or file element causing it, there are multiple separate issues that are currently being worked on.

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