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Okay!  Some random questions about RAM.  I've been looking at Activity Monitor.

 

At idle, with no applications open, my computer seems to be using about 9.17 GB of RAM.  If I close things like Dropbox and Vectorworks Cloud Services (stuff in that top menu bar), then it seems to bottom out at 8.32 GB.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but, plenty of computers run with, say, just 4 GB of RAM.  Even the minimum requirements for VW 2018 Fundamentals seems to be 4 GB.  So I feel like I'm not understanding something... why would my computer idle at over 8 GB of RAM??

 

What's a good way to test the RAM requirements of Vectorworks?  

 

I set three viewports (7 x 5 @ 300 DPI, higher quality Custom Renderworks, just one Heliodon light object each, curved geometry) to render at the same time, and I even continued working in the file.  The RAM usage went up to something like 22 GB.  Similar results when rendering in Vectorworks and using Pixelmatot at the same time.

 

Right now I'm rendering a Rendered Panorama that I know has issues (it will render for hours without success) and it's using about 62 1/2 GB of RAM(!!).  I assume this is an example of the "bug in play" that Jim refers to above.  (I have since found that a sand hatch is the culprit (but only in the project file - it causes no issues in a new, blank file...)).  After several minutes, the user CPU load is going down (was maxed out), the system CPU load is going up, and the RAM's stuck at 62 1/2 GB.  And it'll stay this way 'til I Force Quit VW.  Ha ha, now, having quit VW, I'm down to 5.16 GB; so much for the 8.32 minimum.

 

So... bugs aside, and assuming I'm adequately testing Vectorworks, it seems 32 GB is indeed sufficient.  How about 3, or even 5, years down the road?  I think I read (maybe above somewhere?) that Vectorworks isn't expected to need much more RAM in the foreseeable future (or maybe that's the CPU power I'm thinking of...).

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Please post a screenshot of your activity monitor. RAM can be in many states, not just Used vs Unused. Often youll have most of your RAM addressed but available, which is different than being actively in use.

If your machine is idling and using 5GB of RAM, thats not normal.

I do not expect Vectorwork's RAM usage to increase anytime soon. VRAM usage on the graphics card use will increase, but not system RAM.

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In my Dock, everything except the Finder and Safari was shut down.  In the menu bar (Task Bar?) at the top, Time Machine and VW Cloud Services are running.  Don't most applications show up in the Dock when they're running, or, do I need to go somewhere else (Startup Items or some such thing...) to shut them down? 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Ah, I misread it my apologies. Machines that only have 4GB of RAM on them idle with much lower values. If your machine has 64GB, then the OS knows it can freely take the same percentage of RAM (not a flat value) without affecting performance. Nothing wrong here. I had thought you had 8GB of RAM total and 6GB were in use at idle.

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Ah, okay.  I'd almost asked before if computers with lots of RAM get "lazy" in their use of it, and, I guess they do!

 

1 hour ago, JimW said:

I do not expect Vectorwork's RAM usage to increase anytime soon. VRAM usage on the graphics card use will increase, but not system RAM.

 

Okay, that's very helpful.  I'm hung up on the RAM because, historically, upgrading the RAM is pretty much the only thing I've ever done with my computers (hardware-wise) and, given Apple's increasing aversion to upgradable hardware (I wonder why??...), I just don't want to be kicking myself down the road for not having enough RAM.  But it sounds like 32 GB should be more than enough for quite a while....

 

Thanks, Jim, for all your help!!

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3 hours ago, willofmaine said:

Okay, that's very helpful.  I'm hung up on the RAM because, historically, upgrading the RAM is pretty much the only thing I've ever done with my computers (hardware-wise) and, given Apple's increasing aversion to upgradable hardware (I wonder why??...), I just don't want to be kicking myself down the road for not having enough RAM.  But it sounds like 32 GB should be more than enough for quite a while....

 

The iMac Pro's RAM will be upgradable, just not easily.

 

3 hours ago, JimW said:

Ah, I misread it my apologies. Machines that only have 4GB of RAM on them idle with much lower values. If your machine has 64GB, then the OS knows it can freely take the same percentage of RAM (not a flat value) without affecting performance. Nothing wrong here. I had thought you had 8GB of RAM total and 6GB were in use at idle.

 

Good to know in terms of value, I had thought extra RAM could potentially go unused, but it makes more sense from this perspective. 

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1 hour ago, willofmaine said:

 

Oh, excellent, thanks for the link!  Looks like there's even the possibility of less expensive third-party RAM, as well.  For future use, I've been having trouble convincing myself to go with the 32 GB, but, this sure will make that easier! 

 

It's good to know that the option will exists, but what it costs, I assume, is going to depending on how Apple originally fills the slots and whether the existing RAM will form part of any exchange.

 

Once the iMac Pro is out the door, Apple stores will probably be able to give a set answer on the upgrades, hopefully going from 32 to 64GB, will simply mean adding two new modules into empty slots.      

Edited by M5d
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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Rendered Panos and Animations will be two of the largest RAM users possible. If you max out your ram while doing one, it will start writing to you hard disk, so it will still finish but if it is able to stay all within RAM, it will finish much more quickly.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Because of this thread and others, Im putting together a large article that over-explains what each component in a computer does as it pertains to Vectorworks. Basically a what-affects-what explanation. Setting it up so that each component has a "Short Answer" and then a logn one, so people who care can read in depth and people in a hurry can get the gist of it. Going to specify what types of things (like those above) that eat the most ram, etc.

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10 minutes ago, JimW said:

Rendered Panos and Animations will be two of the largest RAM users possible. If you max out your ram while doing one, it will start writing to you hard disk, so it will still finish but if it is able to stay all within RAM, it will finish much more quickly.

 

My Rendered Pano was a pretty complex model, with some curved surfaces, but just a single light object (Heliodon) and a physical sky.  If I added a bunch of lights, would it look for more RAM, if available, or just take more time?

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4 minutes ago, JimW said:

Because of this thread and others, Im putting together a large article that over-explains what each component in a computer does as it pertains to Vectorworks. 

 

Excellent!  (And I hope I alone haven't driven you to doing that!... ... ...).  

 

In the meantime, you've been extremely helpful!!  Thanks for bearing with me; I really appreciate it!

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
3 minutes ago, willofmaine said:

My Rendered Pano was a pretty complex model, with some curved surfaces, but just a single light object (Heliodon) and a physical sky.  If I added a bunch of lights, would it look for more RAM, if available, or just take more time?


Not sure what specific types of objects do or dont increase the RAM need, still havent had the time to test that yet.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
5 minutes ago, willofmaine said:

 

Excellent!  (And I hope I alone haven't driven you to doing that!... ... ...).  

 

In the meantime, you've been extremely helpful!!  Thanks for bearing with me; I really appreciate it!


Its no trouble at all, your questions just happened to remind me of the things that I havent put to paper (put to pixels?) yet that ive been meaning to. Its super important information especially for those on tight budgets or for large corporate deployments of machines.

 

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Another question!  (A big surprise, right?  By the time I'm done, you won't need to think of any more questions to answer with your article!..).

 

It seems as one increases the number of cores, the speed of each(?) core goes down (for example, the iMac Pro 8-core is 3.2 GHz, and the 14-core is 2.5 GHz).  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vectorworks itself (as opposed to Renderworks) uses only one core, right?  And if so, how much does reduced core speed affect the day-to-day performance of Vectorworks?  (Roughly speaking, if possible - I realize there's likely many factors that might affect the answer...).

 

That's it for now...

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Generally yes.

And it was that way when the nMac Pro was released in 2014.

The 12 core would render faster but be slower in single core only Apps.

 

But as it looks today, the turbo speeds when only one core is used are

nearly identical. So a CPU with many cores will render faster without the

single core penalty. Something I really like.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
7 hours ago, willofmaine said:

And if so, how much does reduced core speed affect the day-to-day performance of Vectorworks?


Honestly it's pretty negligible. I have tried to get hard numbers out of it and the difference even in massive files is often a matter of seconds, even then the margin of error was commonly larger than the difference between the two compared results.

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Teardown.

 

Their comments on RAM upgrades:  

 

“That being said, with consideration to the relatively limited trade-in value of the lowest base 32GB option, the current cost of a full 64GB or 128GB kit and the labor involved with the upgrade – we currently recommend purchasing an iMac Pro with the amount of memory you believe will be needed. While it is huge benefit to have the option in the future, at present the financial benefit is relatively small vs. the factory cost differences to upgrade from that base 32GB. Over time this difference will likely grow and a real benefit will come to be, but for now we do feel the knowledge that an upgrade is possible is of more benefit than choosing to upgrade aftermarket at this time.”

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  • 8 months later...

I have been waiting to upgrade my old Mac Pro to either a Imac Pro or a 2018 Macbook Pro 6 core. Both new Macs have now  been out long enough that they appear to be stable choices.  Both will outrun my classic upgraded MacPro 3.46 ghz 6 core with out any problems. However it’s not just the basic day to day work that I am waiting to see improvements in. It’s all the features I can’t use now due to lengthy screen redraw time.

1. Backgrounds added ot renderings normally increase screen redraws by X10.

2. Anything with glass transparency and reflections.

3. Advanced rendering settings availible in custom settings.

4. Animations that rotate displays that have lots of product symbols.

5. Experimenting with lighting and materials that takes long enough to blunt the creative process and you just accept what you get because you are running out of time (LIFE}

6. Future versions of both Mac OS 10.14, Vectorworks and Adobe CC will require new macs as old macs become obsolete.

 

7. Showing design changes to fellow designers always results in a I will come back later answer. No one can take waiting for redraws. Great if you want to be left alone.

 

Apple announces new products this month (september) so I have to wait and see what my budjet can afford. Also don’t want to buy yesterdays tech that you can’t return.

Leaning towards the 2018 MacBook Pro-2.9Ghz 6 core.

Edited by rjtiedeman
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