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Christiaan

How do you make top roof component overhang the fascia?

Question

Say you have a multi-component roof object, the top component being the finish, say roof tiles. Then you add a fascia board. How do you then show the roof tiles overhanging fascia? Or do we need to use multiple roof objects to do this?

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Hi @Christiaan

 

You can provide an overlap through the roof element OIP

 

5a2009daf2001_ScreenShot2017-11-30at13_32_06.thumb.png.9fbc8ed0cd02fd7cc15e1d2468d5b5fa.png

 

Enter a figure in the bound offset box (here I've used 100mm on a multi layer roof)

 

5a200a08a452a_ScreenShot2017-11-30at13_35_12.thumb.png.ac98fccc945108b95d1f164a03a8a71d.png

 

(not the best example roof, but shows layers are individually adjustable)

Hope that helps

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Ugh, I've just noticed you can't control the attributes of the fascia board without ungrouping the entire roof object. What a waste of time this feature is.

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40 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

What a waste of time this feature is.

 

Think I'd agree! Probably better to add your own - and I assume you OP was because of this rather than instead of this.

 

 

Edited by Gadzooks

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Just to finish this one - It can be done though...

 

This is a fascia board added to the same roof

 

5a200fb0cb7a5_ScreenShot2017-11-30at14_01_51.thumb.png.6cdd5e2874d8caeca3d2be6ad2db378a.png

 

And still has the top material oversail as required.

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59 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

You can provide an overlap through the roof element OIP ... Enter a figure in the bound offset box (here I've used 100mm on a multi layer roof)

 

 

Duh! Of course, thanks Gadzooks. My stupid 🙏🏼

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Do you know if there's any way to control this overset separately for eaves and gable ends?

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50 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

control this overset separately for eaves and gable ends

 

Yes - If I show you the roof beforehand and accentuate the edge condition by inputting 1000 to beef up the graphic (so to confirm - the double lines are an oversail not a wall construction below), you can see the highlighted model clearly shows the oversail on a gable condition.

 

Screen_Shot_2017-11-30_at_15_36_27.thumb.png.46d84b71fccaca0b420e3bdf4d43ee25.png

 

If you choose roof axis line to control the oversail...

 

5a20269883182_ScreenShot2017-11-30at15_34_55.thumb.png.5aa8a61ab6badfa7c8d95a72c8f5e68a.png

 

(and still using the massive 1000) You can see it works as (I'm assuming) you'd want...

 

 

Screen_Shot_2017-11-30_at_15_44_05.thumb.png.e86d370599ac9829d7fddebb0b7d4fe4.png

 

Hope thats of use

Edited by Gadzooks

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hmm, I thought it might be the axis setting, but when I choose that it *insets* the component rather than offsets it.

Edited by Christiaan

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19 hours ago, Christiaan said:

example attached

 

Thanks Christiaan - Now thats really thrown me. 

  • On the one hand I see your model has problems - quite why the upper component retracts is beyond me atm.
  • On the other hand I see it works fine on the model (images) I earlier posted.
  • Some thing obviously differs the two conditions, but I devoted time to it yesterday and some time this morning and I'm still scratching my head. I'm not the 'give-up' type so I will crack this. (or someone will jump in and embarrass us by showing us how to do it)

For the moment, I can confirm that the simple two-slope roof you constructed (from standard four part roof - therefore a Roof object) can be easily constructed by using Roof Face and, with the oversail component (in Slates Tiles-2) will provide the oversail only at the eaves and not at the gable (all as required).

 

As an additional factor, I have this model added to the same drawing file and the same Layer as your examples, so its seems there's nothing untoward (buggy) with the likes of (say) clashing Layer Heights etc.

 

I'd like to say you've found a bug, but I'm not certain on this as I can't get a handle on the 'trigger conditions'.

 

I'll have another look over the weekend probably.... 

 

 

 

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@Christiaan(....annnnnd - I'm back in the room.....)

 

Looked at this again (and again, and again O.o ) OK - so is this a bug? Its certainly has some quirky operation. I'll walk you through it.

 

Take the roof with the receding tiles...

 

5a23f22432e3c_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_41_59.thumb.png.37b01ecda9c0e87539e4b949cea3cb8f.png

 

and change the offset back to Roof Edge...

 

5a23f228b1642_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_42_28.thumb.png.4937e856dc415e450796d481dfbcfbf9.png

 

Obviously produces the offset at the gable edges as well - but stick with it!

 

Select the (whole) roof again and ungroup. This shows the standard dialogue "do you want to Ungroup High Level Objects?" (as Bob the Builder)  Yes we do!

 

This then breaks the Roof into Roof Faces

 

Double clicking the faces in turn allows the shape of the face to be changed through a roof face edit window....

 

5a23f22c7e81d_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_43_21.thumb.png.eb34bbe0eba85df8cda029f0caa62281.png

 

(now this is the 'difficult' bit) Don't change it!!!

 

Exiting the edit window returns you to your roof face - NOW CHANGED - Yes I couldn't really believe this as when I saw it - it was in capitals as wellO.o

 

5a23f241dbc28_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_43_37.thumb.png.f4e3bd2ada3d8b6802d92b2a657fff67.png

 

Carry out the 'change' to the other face...

 

5a23f25a7a0f8_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_43_59.thumb.png.89680fc0c2fdbeb7cb05c0fbd64f2d00.png

 

Probably not so obvious now from the image, but the gable has the flush finish and the eaves have the expected offset.

 

5a23f74b37f5d_ScreenShot2017-12-03at13_07_47.thumb.png.6a7328d8cfe34d1419471f057862de9a.png

 

But also - theres another less obvious result of these actions. Taking a look at an orthogonal view (either end-on is convenient) in wireframe shows the 'new' roof to have a reduced height.

 

5a23f266330d5_ScreenShot2017-12-03at12_44_44.thumb.png.1d356e73720b34290c73cb952a84d3b0.png

 

Having the other roof in view is a happy co-incidence and I don't think I would have seen this straight off if not.

 

The difference is clearly the height of the roof components. Why? is beyond me atm. There's probably some easy explanation for it that I've missed (but tbh - I can't be ***** atm)

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Hope that helps make some sense. I can see it perhaps raises more questions than it solves. But hopefully gets the job done.

  • Doesn't really answer the difference between my earlier solution to you (which appeared to work) and your receding component using the same method.
  • Why does making no change to a roof face edit produce a change? Apart from I can see VW now has the opportunity to 'drop' the two side faces that started off as hips and were turned to gables on first creation of the Roof.
  • Poor software? Too complex (like stairs?) - needs to be more user friendly? Or rubbish user (me I'm talking about) that doesn't understand the complexity and therefore the outcomes of the various Roof options.
  • Begs the question - Is the easier route to have a final top component created separately (and therefore editable separately). Probably!

 

One for the boffins???

 

 

(I'm taking a week off now...B| )

 

 

 

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@ChristiaanHi Not sure if this answers the question but in this file i have adjusted the fascia in the actual roof object and then in the same object overlapped the tile component of the roof. No un-grouping.

HTH

Fascia.vwx

Capture.PNG

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Hi @Alan Woodwell - @Christiaan's original problem was that, if you now change your roof example to replace 2 of the hips with gables, the topmost component offset (you have it set to 100 to oversail the fascia) still overlaps the fascia (as required), but also oversails the gable. Whereas, it would be good to have those edges flush.

 

5a251f42d65fd_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_03_48.thumb.png.ed1aa5bf18fb21e5bbc6df86136c5cdc.png

 

If you then choose to 'Manual Bound' to the Roof Axis line, it retracts the component to all edges.

 

5a2520056373c_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_08_56.thumb.png.c8357a08439845ee1d844e0327149a3a.png

 

Which is not what is expected. Unless VW boffins report its a 'WAD'. After all, its a +'ve number in the offset not a -'ve

 

(sorry if I'm going over it again) But, if you now ungroup, return the roof style to be bound at roof edge (from roof axis) then (crucially it seems) choose to double click to modify the roof edge - but return without making any modification all is as you would want.

 

5a25209f8cc39_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_16_33.thumb.png.45e3a6cfa2a7c70de77ac42f0da11047.png

 

 

Thanks for your interest - Good to have you 'onboard' Alan - I think this might be a long journey (have you brought sandwiches? - I forgot mine)

 

Gadzooks:D

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OK - heres something I just fell over. (Couldn't let it drop)

 

View the roof in top. Here I'm concentrating on just one of the faces, but obviously any/all will be the same.

 

Screen_Shot_2017-12-04_at_10_49_42.thumb.png.78b09507c3ad5b8d6dfb7eb3039d3390.png

 

The 'receding' component is to the left (which is the eaves of this roof face)

 

Switch to Top Plan

 

5a2528ecd4f48_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_49_26.thumb.png.7733e1dcf919f6ef6eb906ce7e9b40b0.png

 

The roof axis is now available for use/positioning

 

Move it to the right makes the top component 'recede' more.

 

5a25290940917_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_50_16.thumb.png.d4b4b3336f4ecc3834e0d7bbb69cdd41.png

 

Screen_Shot_2017-12-04_at_10_50_29.thumb.png.57a3238e6960a38a8991eceb51462ecb.png

 

So at least that answers the receding problem (probably does have some basis to 'WAD')

 

 

Move it off the model

 

5a252a886f216_ScreenShot2017-12-04at10_58_35.thumb.png.309dc323b77e6ba45acdf0fbc2a53145.png

 

and the top component is in its correct (anticipated) position

 

Screen_Shot_2017-12-04_at_10_58_55.thumb.png.323dffc080c4a33946c55901ad7be271.png

 

This affects the height of the roof surface though

 

5a252bdf1606c_ScreenShot2017-12-04at11_02_51.thumb.png.db50613e3ad4ca2f3451c388dd049024.png

 

And you have to move it back to reduce the differs. This is because the axis line is the start of the pitch line

 

5a252bf01218f_ScreenShot2017-12-04at11_03_59.thumb.png.61943d7bb3a7855d1d60bb15c7197a8e.png

 

This does improve it but we're still not there 

 

5a252bec28429_ScreenShot2017-12-04at11_03_47.thumb.png.98808499e91bec2ec12f3f6bc91cfe49.png

 

I can't find a position that gives the eaves offset and still has the roof pitched from the correct height

 

In conclusion -

  • some elements of WAD
  • some thought over whether this is a BUG?

 

 

Edited by Gadzooks

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Wow, thanks@Gadzooks, it's like having a VW angel on my shoulder :D. Thanks too@Alan Woodwell

 

I noticed a height change thing as well. For instance, edit the roof style, remove a lower component, and despite both the red alignment lines in the Roof Replacement window showing to the top of the top components the roof reduces in height, as if the alignment lines were set to the bottom. Surefire bug there I think. Don't think it's related to the roof axis line height change behaviour.

 

We deal with pitched roofs so rarely that the roof axis line is one of those features I've never fully understood and just try to avoid it as much as possible. I clearly need to remedy this. I Googled it to see what I could find and this is the second result:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/42803-roof-styles-gable-overhangs-bug/

 

And this:

http://app-help.vectorworks.net/2018/eng/index.htm#t=VW2018_Guide%2FRoofs%2FCreating_Roof_Components.htm

Quote

Manual Bound: When the roof component is not associated with a set of walls, the roof edge can go all the way to the overhang (Roof Edge) or stop at the slope line (Roof Axis Line)

 

Edited by Christiaan

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No probs Christiaan - I'm learning as well.

 

8 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

I Googled

 

Why didn't I think of that (is there an emoticon with a face slap)

 

Worth noting the conclusion...

 

There have been several bugs associated with the new Roof Styles. I'm waiting until they are fixed before using it

 

and that was.........oh, only Nov 2015. We'll wait then shall we?

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Just now, Gadzooks said:

We'll wait then shall we?

 

Not how we roll is it, ha!

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3 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

Not how we roll is it, ha!

 

I think its some sort of OCD. I just have to find out either whats wrong or a suitable work-around.

 

Think we may have the latter in this case.

 

Onwards to the next one..

Edited by Gadzooks

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15 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

 

I think its some sort of OCD. I just have to find out either whats wrong or a suitable work-around.

 

Think we may have the latter in this case.

 

Onwards to the next one..

 

Changing to a Roof Face solves my immediate problem (thank you) but I'll submit a bug highlighting the difference in behaviour between the Roof object and Roof Face object. I think the behaviour of the Roof Face object highlights the fact that something is wrong the Roof object. I also submit one for the roof height change when adding/removing components.

 

Getting my head around the roof line axis and why moving it changes the height of the roof is next on my list. Maybe there's a bug or at least a wishlist item in there somewhere.

Edited by Christiaan

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Just now, Christiaan said:

Maybe there's a bug or at least a wishlist item in there somewhere

 

Maybe you can Wishlist a comprehensive WW Inc video on this. I think it would be a good reference to the roof tool's complexity.

 

 

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Yes, that's an excellent idea. There are a lot of things going on with this tool and the whys and hows are not immediately obvious.

 

Thanks again Gadzooks. When you're on a deadline it really helps to have somebody come along and distill a problem down to its elements :D

Edited by Christiaan

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4 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

Getting my head around the roof line axis and why moving changes the height of the roof

 

I believe its because VW uses the position as the 'origin' of the slope (usually sitting it on top of a wall)

 

At a wall you just have the thickness of all components. Having moved away from this point you have the (incremental) additional height of the pitch. Or Rise over (the new) Distance explains better?

 

 

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I wonder, then, shouldn't the roof height datum and direction of slope be two separate controls?

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