pozo izquierdo

Large files on v 2018

21 posts in this topic

Hi all, 

this is my first post on this forum so pardon me if this has already been discussed through previously...

I use Vectorworks for designing factory (bakeries) and production line layouts in 3D. I have been using VW since 2011 after some 15 years of AutoCad.  In my models the building is just simple walls, columns, doors, simple windows and floor slab.  (Some samples attached) Typically the building is a reference file to my machine layout. Most of the machines I have modeled over the years either with AutoCad or mostly with VW and I currently have a bakery machine library consting of couple of hundred various machines, which are 2D/3D symbols. I also have a custom built conveyor tool for making conveyors (straight, curves, spirals) as those are widely used in a bakery. Nowadays I also get some macine models from the machine manufactures in STP or SAT format and typically those files are easily 300-500 MB and I try to make those lighter by deleting all the unnecessary details (sprockets, chains, nuts, bolts etc) but still one machine can easily  be 100 MB. 

My constant problem is the large file sizes. A typical working file with 2 to 3 external references is from 500 MB to 1,5 GB. 

I'm currently using v 2016. I tried a year ago to switch over to 2017 but I had some issues with DWG conversions and I had no time to fiddle with this so I stayd with 2016. Already then I noticed that my files became larger with the new version.

Now the 2018 seems to blow the roof! If I open my v 2016 file of 1, 433 GB and save the file as version 2018 without doing anything the file is now 2,050 GB! 

I would like to move to 2018 as I have some funny issues with my 2016 (I will ask about these in another thread) but I don't know is there hardware powerful enough to handle these, especially as I do half of my work on laptop. 

So is it a given fact that each version needs more bytes to present the same information on screen? That I simply need to upgrade my computers annually to be able to even keep up the current work effciency, let alone hoping to handle the documents any faster...?

 

 

I have Win 7 SP1  workstation , with 24GB RAM, Intel Xeon CPU E31245 @3,30 GHz with NVIDIA Quadro K 4200 graphic card and laptop Lenovo W 540 Win 7 SP1, with 32 GB RAM, Intel Core i7-4910MQ CPU @2,90 GHz with Intel HD Graphics Family  graphic card.

 

Ari Ignatius

BakAri Consulting

Hyvinkää, Finland

 

New production line study bakery C.JPG

Dough maker's work area.JPG

Spiraalit 3D 170514.JPG

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Wow, at first look I thought such a nice kinder garden / primary school / clinic design :)

 

On my side, I try to avoid wherever possible to import any external DWG equipment.

Like Duct assemblies or Furniture things in my case.

And if I can't avoid I try to reduce as much as possible, by bringing Meshes in a 3D Mesh App

to clean Meshes or heavy Symbol clean up, even redrawing ....

 

I never watched my file sizes after migrating files.

Maybe I should do that from now on.

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If those figures are Vectorworks humans they are huge file overhead. Use something else if mor than one in a scene, an image prop or other.

NURBS are often “lighter” than other solids. Maybe some of the helix equipment can be remodeled using NURBS?

Anyway it does seem files get bigger in new versions but shouldn’t add 30%. I haven’t seen metrics.

Rendered files save bigger than unrendered.

 

-B

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Thanks for the hints, guys.

Yes those (few) figures are Vectorworks humans converted to hybrid symbols as I want to have a little different 2D view than the standard VW human. I'll try to use the new VW 2018 feature of optimizing the mesh and see if these can be made lighter. EDIT 30 min later: This did not work! Original VW 2016 human figure as my hybrid object has the size of 1139 kb and after converting the 3D to mesh and then "optimizing" it the file size is 2906 kb! 

Talking about the recommendation of using mesh vs. something else I attach couple of other examples together with the next question:

 

There is a typicl bakery machine library hybrid symbol that I use in my models. This is made from extrudes, sweeps etc. and the size of this symbol in 2016 seems to be 1151 kb. I tested the mesh optimizing feature of 2018 and so I converted my 3D to mesh and then used the optimizing tool to reduce the size of the mesh.  The result was pretty discouraging: the file size jumped to 2262 kb in v 2018 and when I converted that back to 2016 the file is still 1998 kb. 

What have I missed here now? What advantage does the mesh using give?  

 

 

 

 

Dough mixer v2016.vwx

Dough_mixer_v2018_mesh_optimized.vwx

Dough mixer v2016 mesh optimized.vwx

Edited by pozo izquierdo
Adding a test result.

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No, you should never convert any solids to dumb meshes.

Things like a bended pipe as a real solid has a very small file size.

(Just 1x shape +  1x path curve)

When you convert it to mesh it will divide into a lot of polygons and vertices,

according to 3D resolution you have chosen,

and alle these polygons have to be stored in file one by one.

 

As long as you have a solid, you can decide how simple or accurate meshing

will be by settings, in case you need it to export or when rendering.

But once it is a mesh, it is dead geometry.

 

I meant it the other way round.

When you get difficult complicated meshes by an import or library resource and

it has more data or resolution than you will ever need and there is no way to optimize it,

it may be worth to redraw it with VW tools and solids.

 

 

 

Edited by zoomer

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pozo,  very nice work...

i do a similar type of work but with composting... i have a large library of equipment but clean out nuts and bolts...

my biggest file was 1.14GB and did not notice a jump in size when upgrading to 2018...but i was not paying attention either.

 

what would happen if you took a file and deleted all the drawing sheets and only had the model?  what would be the file sizes?

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side point...all this concern that pozo has about:

 

if he needs to get a new computer every year to keep up with new VW versions

should he upgrade...

even this entire post...

 

none of the above would exist if VW was cloud based.  

 

Just saying...i'll shut up now.

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Big thanks for your comments so far! Looks like I should have been here asking for advise long time ago...

 

My work flow for the 2D work typically goes as follows:

- in 3D mode I activate everything and do the "convert to lines"

- then I usully choose the "hidden line rendering" which looks better in 2D IMHO

This way I get the hybrid object quite easily. 

 

For many of my objects the 2D work comes directly from the machine manufacturers 2D (usually DWG) drawing that I import to VW, discard all the inherited DWG layers and use this as my 2D view. Usually my  3D work has far less details than the factory 2D. 

 

How did you make the 2D polygon, I tried that but could not figure out the correct way?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, pozo izquierdo said:

How did you make the 2D polygon, I tried that but could not figure out the correct way?

 

draw a rectangle around the 2d lines

 

poly fill the area outside the lines but inside the rectangle 

 

then delete the lines 

 

then poly fill the void left behind 

 

then delete the rectangle and the rectangle poly fill

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I have to give up...sorry to bother you once more but this "poly fill" remains a total mystery for me! Where is that at? Your procedure is otherwise clear but this "poly fill"....???

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OK, life seems to be a never ending learning process! Now I have only 9999 Vectorworks features to figure out. Big thanks! 

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Hello,

Digitalcarbon has the most efficient method and thanks for outlining the process, very clear. Just as an aside, sometimes using the Render Bitmap Tool (RBT) can be a very nice way of creating the 2D representation of a 3D object needing to be hybrid.

In the enclosed file the size is 1.14MB which is higher than Digitalcarbon's 877KB but obviously looks quite different. A bit of fiddling might yet be able to be done with the image in the OIP to reduce further.

Anyway I mention this as it's not a well know method and can be quite visually informative.

 

Cheers,

Peter

RBT version.jpg

Dough mixer RBT.vwx

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On 11/11/2017 at 11:24 PM, pozo izquierdo said:

So is it a given fact that each version needs more bytes to present the same information on screen?

I just went the other way because VW2018 was so slow on a drawing and exported it back to VW0216 (It originally was a VW2016 drawing converted to VW2018 and updates had already been made).

 

The VW2018 file is 30-40% larger than the VW2016 file, so that sort of aligns with your experience.  The same happened to VW2017 vs VW2016, but from VW2017 to VW2018 the difference is minor as far as I can tell for the drawings converted from VW2017 to VW2018 but it can vary depending on contents of the drawing. VW stores a lot of information on the objects in its files, especially when you import a DWG file you can see the file size explode at times (VW file being 3-5 times larger than the DWG file).


That being said, I am still using the same computer for VW2018 as for VW2016 and with exception of converted pre-VW2017 files I don't notice much of a performance drop. The rendering got some new options and features and those could lead to much longer rendering times, so that is a matter of tinkering with the settings to get the same result at faster rendering times. The same applies to some other things, but that does not explain some of the slowness that people are complaining about.

 

Edited by Art V

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Hi Pozo,

 

Digitalcarbon may have touched on it and I missed it...when modelling with solids, once you're done and you're satisfied with your model, convert it to a Generic Solid.  This will reduce the file size.  Be advised however, it also deletes the "history" of the object.  Add Solid/Subtract Solid retains the history so you can go back...but at the expense of file size...

 

Wes

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On 11/12/2017 at 1:43 PM, digitalcarbon said:

if he needs to get a new computer every year to keep up with new VW versions

should he upgrade...

even this entire post...

 

none of the above would exist if VW was cloud based.  

And for me it would be exit VW if it were cloud based because I've often been at locations where internet connection is either slow or virtually non-existent (there is internet connection available for guests but it is so unreliable that it is is non-working for practical purposes).

 

Cloud based software is nice if you have a fast and permanently available internet connection when you need it (not counting the occasional non-availability because of maintenance, natural disaster etc), which is not a given for large parts of this world, or if you are dealing with the situation I described above. I do use some cloud based software, but it is for non-critical stuff.

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3 hours ago, Wes Gardner said:

igitalcarbon may have touched on it and I missed it...when modelling with solids, once you're done and you're satisfied with your model, convert it to a Generic Solid.  This will reduce the file size.  Be advised however, it also deletes the "history" of the object.  Add Solid/Subtract Solid retains the history so you can go back...but at the expense of file size...

It is an option that I use at times for things that are unlikely to be changed for a long while, but I also do keep the original in a separate VW file in case it needs to be modified and then I can put in the modified version and turn that into a generic solid again.

So in addition to that suggestion of converting to generic solids, make sure you keep an editable copy in a separate VW file to go back to if modifications are necessary if it is more than just a simple object.

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