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DWG Import Resolution Problems

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What I don't get at all is,

if you import a DWG at a wrong Scale/Units,

the Object's (Off) Scale itself between objects is totally ok.

But the Location of (some?) Objects is wrong and some Objects spread all over the drawing.

 

It looks like there are no problems in Z heights, just dislocations in XY plane.

I think often only one Axis is affected.

(I am not 100% sure about that)

 

If I re-import that file at a correct Unit Setting again, I have to choose Millimeters

as DWG Units, everything is fine as it should.

 

I noticed that behavior over many years and VW releases.

So I do not understand what the problem is, that Objects come in fine but not their Location.

 

 

Why import in wrong Units happened at all :

In this case I worked in a DWG file that had "Working" Units set to Meter and VW was set to Meter.

It looks like the "File" or System Units Standard internally may be in Millimeters though.

Whatever or which side does wrong reading or exporting the correct Units,

- I would have expect to import Meters

- VW expects to import in Meters

 

And it is just a Factor of 1:1000 off + everything sits directly around file origin.

Edited by zoomer

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2 hours ago, zoomer said:

It looks like there are no problems in Z heights, just dislocations in XY plane.

I think often only one Axis is affected.

(I am not 100% sure about that)

 

OK,

Z shifts less likely but also happening.

 

And for me it looks more like a "Mirror" (or maybe "Rotation") Problem about file origin,

than a Move/Shift problem.

 

What it looks when import off Scale :

 

DWG_OFFSCALE_TOP.jpg.4b727cae5b03bd7c07a42dddf358379a.jpg

 

DWG_OFFSCALE_FRONT.jpg.f644cf8ae0b62ae01619c2edb201a75b.jpg

 

 

When imported in suitable Units :

 

DWG_INSCALE_TOP.jpg.4eaa0e1e7044174cbfce3bf72fc599f9.jpg

 

 

 

Also View display behaves strange after importing a DWG.

- Switching between 2D Top Plan and 3D Views does not activate OpenGL as it is set

- manually forcing 3D to OpenGL gave a black background

(when manually activating black background option it disappeared after switching back to standard white view background)

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3 hours ago, zoomer said:

What I don't get at all is,

if you import a DWG at a wrong Scale/Units,

the Object's (Off) Scale itself between objects is totally ok.

But the Location of (some?) Objects is wrong and some Objects spread all over the drawing.

Unfortunately DWG has no distinct separation between 2D and 3D like VW used to have in the past, so it depends a bit on the 2D/3D import settings as some items may not get properly converted to 3D (e.g. because they might be 2D items in 3D space). Then there is the question whether things were drawn properly or not.  I've seen drawings where parts were hundreds of meters behind the rest of the geometry because they didn't pay attention to the working plane.

 

Another thing is that the units setting in DWG file only relates to inserting blocks (symbols in VW) and not to what you are drawing in the drawing itself. So it is possible to set the units at meters but set out everyting as millimeters. Or the drawing was made to scale and not at real world units (e.g. units set to millimeters, drawn as meters by pretending 1mm = 1m, i.e. 1:1000 scale).

Then there is the possiblity that no units were set (i.e. units were set to "unitless").

 

Is the part that is ending up correctly or incorrectly a block/symbol? If so maybe VW is interpreting the units based on one set of items and then incorrectly places the other part based on e.g. the block units. Or it could be a mirrored/flipped block in the DWG file that causes it to be in a different position, but that still would not explain the difference in setting units manually to the "correct" units or the automatic unit detection.

Just a guess as without the DWG file I have to get a bit creative about the possible causes.  It is one of the reasons why having a DWG based CAD program is useful to have alongside VW, as it allows you to check things in the DWG file and if necessary make correction in settings or objects before importing into VW.

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Sorry, I have attached 2D views only, but it is all 3D geometry only (Solids).

Also Import Settings are as much 3D as possible.

(You may remember that demo scene from one of your other Software)

 

There are Blocks for Doors and Windows, but these all seem to not be affected

and appear at their correct location.

 

(But I experienced that VW can have large problems with "scaled" blocks, from the past)

 

 

 

As far as I see, all dislocated part were just Solids.

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Zoomer,

 

I am not sure what exactly could cause some of the Solid objects to be positioned wrongly, but could check this if you send the the DWG file.

 

What I see from the images above is that both imports - wrong and proper one - are done in documents with same units - for the correct import ruler shows, that the graphics is between x= -2500 and x= 12500, which is comparable to the wrongly imported graphics. As Art V mentioned, DWG files does not have units - you can choose in AutoCAD, that block insertions will be done using meters, but this does not mean, that the graphics is in meters at all. However this units setting is the only thing, which Vectorworks could use to guess what are the DWG drawing units. So, we might show in the Import Options dialog, that Automatically determined units are meters, but this might not be the case at all. The best case is to know from the DWG creator what is his/her drawing units and use them directly. In some cases DWG files are set to Unitless and then prediction of the units is nearly impossible. 

 

Internally solid objects (ACIS data) are always described in millimeters, so there is no direct meter-to-meter support. It is possible that during millimeters-to-meters conversion position is somehow calculated improperly, but in my opinion this is not likely to happen, except if the original drawing is not far away the UCS origin.

 

It appears to me, that some graphics is just flipped - which might be related to the import of flipped blocks. Have you tried using "2D and 3D" import option? Is it possible that you have used All 3D import option for the wrong import and "2D and 3D"  import option for the correct import? I would recommend using 2D and 3D import option even for the 3D graphics. 

 

Please, attach the DWG file or send it directly to me at nivanova@vectorworks.net.

 

Thank you,

Nina

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OK, thanks Nina.

 

No, settings were exactly the same for both imports,

just 1x wrong Meter + 1x correct Millimeter import.

 

So DWG does not tell its Working Units.

VW tries to guess in automatic mode, like I guess what it could be.

As I worked in Meters in Bricscad I expected to import in Meters but

that was not true in this case.

No problem, I do test imports in blank files before anyway.

 

Yes, when I imported in wrong Units (Meters), as it needs Millimeters instead,

of course the geometry is 1:1000 larger, as to be expected.

 

I just wonder that when the DWG geometry is obviously ok when imported in proper Units Scale,

when accidentally imported in wrong Units, why is it not just in wrong Scale,

why do these strange dislocations happen.

 

I think this happens with any file.

In the past I had endless discussions with clients sending me DWG from Revit,

telling them their geometry would be corrupted.

 

But here comes the test file.

I used a blank file to import but set Units to Meters before import.

 

Screenshot-29.jpg.1e2226d697fc88090b85946ad1f9bdba.jpg

 

^ These are my import Settings with wrong Units (Meters) that will cause dislocations.

Change these to Millimeters to get the correct result.

 

 

TEST_DWG.dwg

TEST_VW_IMPORT_BLANK_PRESET.vwx

 

 

Edited by zoomer

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Thank you for the file, Zoomer!

 

Yes, I was able to see the problem when units are set to Meters. Appears it is somehow related to the Solid objects boxes, which are too big in this case. I am still researching what exactly happens, but will enter a bug report and will assign it to the appropriate engineer. 

 

Thank you,

Nina

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1 hour ago, Nina Ivanova said:

I was able to see the problem

 

I am so happy to hear this  ....

 

Am a bit wondering why the Blocks (Windows, Doors, ...) seem to be not effected at all.

Only Solids in this example.

 

As in real projects I had always problems with scaled Blocks,

where the geometry looks good but bounding boxes when selected keep

the original unscaled size. Too big in my cases.

And these boxes where able to block camera views, although not visible.

 

 

Edit :

BTW, no Love Button available for me today !?, as I would like to give you a reputation point.

Edited by zoomer

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Only some of the Solids are affected. Part of the walls, floors and other elements, which are also Solids, are positioned correctly. Windows and doors are blocks, but they are also composed by Solids. 

I entered this bug report: https://jira.vectorworks.net/browse/VB-146582.

 

I will let the appropriate engineers to know about the scaled blocks issue, which you described above.

 

Thanks,

Nina

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On 11/6/2017 at 1:54 PM, zoomer said:

As I worked in Meters in Bricscad I expected to import in Meters but

that was not true in this case.

No problem, I do test imports in blank files before anyway.

 

Yes, when I imported in wrong Units (Meters), as it needs Millimeters instead,

of course the geometry is 1:1000 larger, as to be expected.

Actually the drawing is in millimeters, otherwise you would have a 200m thick wall, so 200mm for a wall thickness seems more likely. Not to mention that 2+ square km floor area.

 

My guess is that at some points the units were in mm and when you typed units in m then it automatically got converted to mm. If later on the units got changed to meters then the number of the dimensions would not change. Did you at some point switch units in the drawing? It is one of those pesky DWG things that a unit change does not convert to the equivalent value in the new unit (e.g. 200mm to 0.2m after unit change, which is something that VW does)

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15 minutes ago, Art V said:

Did you at some point switch units in the drawing?

 

Yes,

that is the first thing I always do after opening a blank file from the BIM metric template.

I've done the earlier Villa BIM Tutorials/Videos where they work in Millimeters - I don't want to work that way.

I want input units in Meters, maybe Centimeters. For Architectural Scales Millimeters is meaningless.

 

The setting in File Settings was the only one I could find.

I see my Microstation DWGs (Meter) come into BC in Meters already.

 

Did I do something wrong in the DWG world ?

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2 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Did I do something wrong in the DWG world ?

Well... that depends on when you switch units. VW will change the 200mm to 0,2m when you switch units, but dwg does not always do this depending on the dwg program. Some may ask if you want to rescale the drawing to match the new units, others do not.

 

For example, if units is set to millimeters and you type 0.2m then it will be converted to 200mm (VW does the same).

However, if you later on change the unit to meters and type 0.2m then you will get 0.2m, but.... the existing object of 200mm will still show up as 200 units, but in this case other software will see that as 200m as that is the current unit.

So switching units during an editing session in DWG is something you should not do without rescaling the existing objects, if necessary resize/scale existing objects manually to match the desired units if you do not see a question asking you to rescale or not after a unit change.

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So BC File unites Setting behaves similar to C4D "file" units.

These will just scale Units from internal Units. You would need to scale Objects.

On the other Hand C4D also has a Working Units Setting like VW does

when changing file Units.

 

I just want to work with input fields scaled to meters.

Is there another setting ?

Or are DWGs from BC simply always in Millimeters.

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28 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Or are DWGs from BC simply always in Millimeters.

No.

 

The somewhat longer answer... you can use define a unit you want (metric or imperial) and that will the drawing unit. Your input can be in another unit and BC should convert it to the drawing unit (e.g 0.2m gets converted to 200mm if mm is the drawing unit).

 

The problem arises when there are already existing objects in the drawing and you then change units. Then you need to scale those existing units to match the new unit. AutoCAD may or may not ask you to scale the existing drawing to the new unit depending on settings etc., BC as far as I know does not have this automatic scale question coming up, so you need to do that manually.

 

Apart from that you can set a combination of display units that depending on size it may display the value in a different unit, e.g. 2000mm may be displayed as 2m in the properties palette, giving the impression you might be working in meters. If later on you change the insertion units to meters as well then you may get that scale issue you were experiencing. You may want to look up the units topic in BC to see the various options and how they interact.

 

Despite this one shortcoming, I do think BC is a nice companion to VW for checking and editing/cleaning up dwg files before import or after export, or when you need some dwg features that VW does not (yet) have (e.g. text style during import/export from/to dwg) to make the exported VW file meet the client's requirements.

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36 minutes ago, Art V said:

(e.g 0.2m gets converted to 200mm if mm is the drawing unit).

 

But I want to set proper working units so that I do not need to add a unit extension.

When I need 20 cm input, I think of typing ",2"

("." unfortunately in BC)

 

 

38 minutes ago, Art V said:

The problem arises when there are already existing objects in the drawing and you then change units

 

Have to re-check this.

I thought I had done this and it worked ok, just scaling my input fields.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Art V said:

Apart from that you can set a combination of display units that depending on size it may display the value in a different unit, e.g. 2000mm may be displayed as 2m in the properties palette,

 

That is exactly what I want.

Will look into it ...

 

 

41 minutes ago, Art V said:

Despite this one shortcoming, I do think BC is a nice companion to VW

 

Yes, for my problem with VW DWG ACIS Exports having strange face tessellation,

BC has a very nice "clean-up" command that repairs in one go.

 

BTW,

IFC Exchange works much better than DWG, everything solids in BC, even VW Walls.

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13 hours ago, zoomer said:

But I want to set proper working units so that I do not need to add a unit extension.

When I need 20 cm input, I think of typing ",2"

("." unfortunately in BC)

If you want to work in meters, then set the INSUNITS (insertion units) to meters as this also governs the units used in the drawing. If necessary resize the existing drawing objects to match the units.

If then you would for example at some point type 25mm then it would still be correctly converted to 0.025m in the drawing so that size will be correct relative to the other objects.

(another option could be to create a blank drawing having the units you want defined in the INSUNITS variable, then import the existing drawing into the blank drawing and then it should automatically get resized to match the new units).

 

13 hours ago, zoomer said:

I thought I had done this and it worked ok, just scaling my input fields.

Changing units to meters to just avoid using the unit extension without resizing the existing objects will mess things up in BC regarding object sizes as new objects will be drawn correctly, but existing objects will remain the same numerical size but now in meters instead of e.g. mm (i.e. a factor 1000 larger than they actually should be)

 

13 hours ago, zoomer said:

That is exactly what I want.

This only affects displaying property values in e.g. the property window (OIP in VW), not the input of values as that is ruled by the INSUNITS variable. (there are also INSUNITSDEFSOURCE and INSUNITSDEFTARGET that can affect things if INSUNITS is 0 (zero), so maybe you want to look into that as well)

 

13 hours ago, zoomer said:

IFC Exchange works much better than DWG, everything solids in BC, even VW Walls.

Does it also work equally well from BC to VW?  If so then it might be a workaround to import IFC objects that have issues in VW first into BC and fix things there if possible and then export IFC from BC to import that into VW. Though VW and BC are both using the same Teigha libraries (incl. Revit import) but maybe there are differences in implementation of features that could make things work a little better in one or the other.

 

This units thing is one of the details to watch out for when importing DWG files into VW as well as exporting VW files to DWG if you need to match the units of existing DWG files.

e.g. If a dwg file is in mm where the common use is m then I'll import it into VW set to m and dwg in mm so that it is automatically resized to meters. However, if I would have to export it back to dwg I need to be aware of whether I can maintain meters as units like the VW drawing or that I have to rescale back to millimeters to match other existing dwg files. This because of the (potentially) messy units handling in DWG files.

 

PS: for those reading this and not having BC, this units thing applies to most other "AutoCAD style" DWG based programs as well.

Edited by Art V

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To not confuse helpful Nina and others,

we are going a bit Offtopic now.

The problem is still why VW DWG import can have problem with Object's Location and Orientation,

while the Objects Dimensions itself are as expected, if imported in wrong scale.

 

And I will always get sent DWG Source Data, where no one is able to say at which scale it was drawn.

So I have to test import and check anyway. That is not a big issue.

 

 

[OT]

1.

Yes, of course, I forgot, in this example it is very likely that I changed insertion units AFTER the

objects were placed or existing.

 

2.

OK, I see, BC does keep the Objects Dimensions in "internal" Units, when I change the input Units.

(So I wonder why the Building in these files is still in scale, may be I scaled it manually at one point)

 

3.

So far I did only VW IFC to BC.

While the BIM classification and data is there, the geometry is just Solids, no more PIO.

Unlike Archicad, where my friend can re-open all my VW PIO's and work with them nearly like they were

created in Archicad itself.

But if I would only export from VW by DWG, most PIOs like Walls come into BC as separate Polyfaces,

non connected, so not even Meshes.

The Solids that come by VW IFC are at least easy to edit. 

[/OT]

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5 hours ago, zoomer said:

2.

OK, I see, BC does keep the Objects Dimensions in "internal" Units, when I change the input Units.

(So I wonder why the Building in these files is still in scale, may be I scaled it manually at one point)

Not sure if you mean what I think you mean. BC (and AutoCAD etc.) does not have units. You can only tell it to "pretend" the unit to be e.g. meters but you are actually drawing in "dimensionless" units.

See example below to illustrate the concept of units in DWG, I hope this clarifies a bit better what I am trying to convey with regard to units in DWG:

 

image.png.85e25e4a963d880698630fb07814edbc.png

Now you can see why changing on INSUNITS while there are already existing objects in the drawing can create a mess, even if you do not add new objects, as VW will use the current INSUNITS settings to determine the drawing units. Or why you need to resize existing objects to match the new "units".
The use of the word units as used in AutoCAD etc. is a bit deceiving if you treat them as units used in daily language (e.g. metres, mm, inch etc. which represent an actual physical length/size)

 

EDIT: Updated figure to correct a mistyped reference to the 4th circle and add a little bit extra to the explanation regarding resizing

Edited by Art V

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

And I will always get sent DWG Source Data, where no one is able to say at which scale it was drawn.

So I have to test import and check anyway. That is not a big issue.

Theoretically a DWG drawing is drawn at 1:1 scale and layout viewports (sheet layers) are used to show it in another scale. The issue is to figure out which units were used. Or the unit is set to mm and drawn as if it were meters, then it is a bit harder to figure out, but at some point it is possible to guess by measuring one or more objects to see what would be logical.

 

Whoever sends you a DWG file should be able to tell you how it was drawn, even if it was an export from e.g Revit they should be able to tell you the units used and if a scale factor was applied to the export or not. Now if it would be a secretary snatching the file from the server to send it to you I can understand that the secretary would not now, but then she (or he) should ask for that info with the document creator. It makes me wonder how they can update their own files later if they can't tell the scale and units.

If there are layouts with viewports, then the viewport scale might give you an indication too if you open the drawing in a DWG program like BC etc.

Edited by Art V

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OH MY GOD

 

What an unnecessary meaningless bunch of hurts.

Step by step I recognize what you tried to explain.

 

I think the behavior in step 2 of your example in your attachment is totally ill.

 

I didn't expect such things in the past.

Since decades I import or export DWG files. that always seemed not fine but at least predictable.

All these DWGs had something - which I thought to be Units or Dimensions.

You try to ask first in which Units it was drawn or just test an import to check the scale in your Meter

workflow. If walls were about 30 cm, you knew you were lucky, if they were 30 m thick, you knew

it may be drawn in Centimeters. Sometimes it was even imperial stuff when off 0,39.

I always used Unit-capable Software and never had a large problem with such exchange.

 

But as I want to avoid to even think about that behavior,

for ACAD Dummies :

 

Is it really ok to start with a new file, set INSUNITS to meters and just create my geometry.

Without running into any trouble later with things like imported blocks or such.

 

Or would it be better to always keep the default units (mm in metric ?) and

a) always input tedious extra zeros for numbers

or

b) need to input a Unit Symbol for each input.

 

(While b) after seeing your example, I think would be the worst option ever)

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, zoomer said:

I think the behavior in step 2 of your example in your attachment is totally ill.

Yes it is if you're not fully aware of what unit actually means in the AutoCAD/dwg way, but it is correct behaviour as for circles 3 and 4 the units are the same.

EDIT: Just realised you might be referring to the existing geometry before the unit change not being resized upon the unit change, yes that is totally ill too. (Which is also why I slightly updated the figure)

 

2 hours ago, zoomer said:

Since decades I import or export DWG files. that always seemed not fine but at least predictable.

All these DWGs had something - which I thought to be Units or Dimensions.

Most drawings are drawn in either imperial or metric units in some way, and there is usually something that allows you to figure out what the unit should be after some trial and error.

 

Once in a while you just have to guess if there is no item with really obvious dimensions.

In the past I've seen dwg files messed up because of this units mess,  e.g. what should be 2x1.5 km ending up as 2x1.5mm in the DWG file because INSUNITS was in mm, don't ask me how they managed to do that consciously but the person was probably not aware of this units mess.

 

2 hours ago, zoomer said:

Is it really ok to start with a new file, set INSUNITS to meters and just create my geometry.

Without running into any trouble later with things like imported blocks or such.

This should be ok IF the imported blocks also have units set (e.g. inches), in that case BC will automatically resize the imported blok, xref, drawing etc., this should also include copy/paste from another drawing with INSUNITS set.

 

If the drawing or block you are inserting is set to "unitless" (i.e. has no (ins)units specified) then it will import as if the units are the same as specified with INSUNITS in your working file, i.e. if INSUNITS is meters, then it will assume the block, drawing etc. is also in meters because there is no reference whatsoever in the imported file and then you will need to manually resize the object/xref/etc. afterwards.

 

2 hours ago, zoomer said:

Or would it be better to always keep the default units (mm in metric ?) and

a) always input tedious extra zeros for numbers

or

b) need to input a Unit Symbol for each input.

 

(While b) after seeing your example, I think would be the worst option ever)

I wouldn't bother worrying about using mm as default for everything unless you have something that requires to be drawn in mm. Just use whatever unit is your commonly used unit for the project and if you need to override the input then add the unit symbol, e.g. if you have some spec that says 23.5 inch then I would just type that instead number with the inch unit symbol (probably "in" in BC or the double quote aka inch mark isntead of converting it to m, cm, mm or whatever you use as working unit as BC should take care of the conversion. You may want to check how many decimals BC uses for a conversion of e.g inch to cm (i.e. 2.5 or 2.54 or more decimals)

 

Using unit symbols for input only works if the unit is different from what is set in INSUNITS.

Edited by Art V

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OK, so you gave me the confirmation to set my INSUNITS to my liking

and not further bother - as long as I do it before creating geometry.

 

I never did something else that choosing suitable working units and input numbers.

And I could be sure that these are counted in the Units that were set.

I always thought this is just a nice extra feature that in your Meter environment you can

type in "5 nm" instead of needing to type "0,0000...5 m".

Just like the math feature, that I can input something like "1,527 * 2,5".

 

But if I get that right, in a DWG environment, I am forced to either never input Numbers+Units or always ?

 

EDIT

Did a test, INSUNITS to meters, draw 3 cubes by

a) 1,1,1

b) 100cm,100cm,100cmm

c) 1000mm,1000mm,1000mm

 

Force VW DWG to 1 meters = 1 meters

Everything works fine, all 3 are fine 1m Cubes.

 

That is finally what I need !

 

 

And oh, yes, I see that Test file's building is in wrong scale !!!

I did not check that. I thought you were talking about the VW imports !!!

 

 

Thanks a lot for your patience Art V.

I got it now.

 

(btw where is that helpful button ....)

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21 minutes ago, zoomer said:

OK, so you gave me the confirmation to set my INSUNITS to my liking

and not further bother - as long as I do it before creating geometry.

Yes

 

21 minutes ago, zoomer said:

I never did something else that choosing suitable working units and input numbers.

And I could be sure that these are counted in the Units that were set.

I always thought this is just a nice extra feature that in your Meter environment you can

type in "5 nm" instead of needing to type "0,0000...5 m".

Just like the math feature, that I can input something like "1,527 * 2,5".

This is correct for new geometry, not for existing geometry as it does not resize with the unit change in most DWG based software (with recent AutoCAD versions it may or it may not resize depending on settings).

 

26 minutes ago, zoomer said:

But if I get that right, in a DWG environment, I am forced to either never input Numbers+Units or always ?

 

No need to input units if the numbers are for the unit that was set in INSUNITS. If the units are putting in are different from what is set in INSUNITS then also type the unit. (like you did in your test of the 1m cube).

 

Just check if INSUNITS has been set when you get a DWG file or that is is set to unitless. The latter one may cause issues when inserting into another DWG file or importing into VW, but setting INSUNITS in such a file should solve that if you can figure out what the units should be.

 

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Hmmh, back to the initial problems with geometry dislocations.

 

Since I now that the building geometry is indeed 1000 times too big for any reason,

the problematic of both import scales : Meter = Meter

indeed was correct import scale !

 

It is just a bit of a larger house than normal. 20 km length or so.

So something like a Large Hadron Collider or a Chemistry Plant.

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