Concrete & Steel

[digitalcarbon]

been using onshape (8hrs/day) for the past week.  this is what I'm noticing.

 

VW is project/site centric

onshape is part centric

 

In no way (now that i have used it) would i ever consider using onshape for what i have been doing with VW

(i was thinking about it when i first was introduced to onshape because of the sharing in realtime paradigm) 

 

on the other hand, i am using onshape to make all my fabrication drawings with the idea that i am sharing them with all the fabricators who will bid on the project.  

 

this way i do not need to manage pdfs.

 

as you can see i am still making drawings but i will not export to pdf...email out/dropbox...have others produce their own shop drawings...then their own pdfs...then a side by side review of my stuff and theirs on bluebeam revu...

 

           ugh...what a headache!

 

so both programs seem to complement each other like Concrete & Steel to make Reinforced Concrete

 

VW should dump all legacy Mech features and streamline exporting of symbols as 3d objects...

and needs to be cloud based with similar way to invite anyone into the project like onshape.

 

also, as for the cloud based paradigm with live editing interaction (that is...no checking things in or out...etc)  

1. ran so smooth that i forgot that the app was cloud based

2. had another person working on the same part...not really a problem. if they mess it up...unlimited undos and its history based 

3. simple to use... i had my wife (no mechanical aptitude but good with accounting programs) set up all my drawing sheets, title blocks, placed views (top, front, right, iso) properly on sheets

4. she set up BOM for all my assemblies

5. no save command.  i cannot believe how this has stream lined workflow

6. export to IGS then i import into my VW symbols to verify work fits with over all (shown in pic below)

 

 

[digitalcarbon]

also, onshape wants you to define all relationships when drawing...

 

while this is very good for mechanical work...it would be a headache for creativity...

 

i could not imagine doing the following image below in onhshape...this is where VW rules...

 

[digitalcarbon]

and the fab drawings shown above is in the public sector of shape.  that means that anyone of you could open the file and see the work...but you just don't have the ability to edit or leave comments unless i invited you...

 

so you could bid on it right now if you are a SS fabricator...(just making a point)

 

 

[Art V]

31 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

VW should dump all legacy Mech features and streamline exporting of symbols as 3d objects...

and needs to be cloud based with similar way to invite anyone into the project like onshape.

 

With all due respect, uhm.... well..... no way in hell for my line of work where the cloud part is concerned. As an option I would not mind, but it should definitely not become the only way because then I'll be off to another program that does at least have the option not to do this even if it is a less convenient program.

 

On of the reasons for this rejection, apart from client confidentiality and some other things, can be read in the following comparison about terms of service for Onshape and Fusion 360
https://dezignstuff.com/terms-of-service-for-fusion-360-and-onshape-comparison/

 

As far as I know you have to put all data in Onshape and you can't get it out in an editable way as you can in Onshape itself. It does not seem to offer an in-house cloud option as some other "cloud providers" seem to do.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Art V

[zoomer]

Same here, no interest in clouds or rent models at all.

But no problem if there will be an "option" for some users preferring to work

on a rented VW in Browser Version in the cloud.

[digitalcarbon]

Art V,  i read the link...valid points...but then i started to worry about things like...all my money is in the cloud...my health plan is in the could...my credit score is in the cloud...

 

the most secure items would be hand drawn paper drawings...vs a HD that could go kaput and any moment..

[digitalcarbon]

vw should keep the standard way of doing things for all BUT for the cloud...a total rework of the software & not just do a "VW in the cloud"  

[zoomer]

I wouldn't say no for a little rewrite for the standard way either

Edited October 26, 2017 by zoomer

[Art V]

6 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

Art V,  i read the link...valid points...but then i started to worry about things like...all my money is in the cloud...my health plan is in the could...my credit score is in the cloud...

 

the most secure items would be hand drawn paper drawings...vs a HD that could go kaput and any moment..

Yes, but the difference is that unlike e.g. CAD cloud providers the companies holding your data in the cloud can be held liable/accountable. The CAD cloud providers do their utmost best to reject any responsibility/liability for your data security.

I've been dealing with cloud providers offering services and citing convenience, group work, ease of access for teams etc. but when asked to sign a liability agreement for data that is to be treated as confidential they either reject or say they need to consult with a colleague internally and then never get back.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see the benefits of some clouds and it does have some advantages as even paper drawings are not that secure either (fire, flooding, a dog chewing on it etc.).
The big issue is security and access control. For non-critical, non-confidential work it is fine but the higher the stakes the less I'm willing to put things in the cloud.

[Art V]

12 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

vw should keep the standard way of doing things for all BUT for the cloud...a total rework of the software & not just do a "VW in the cloud"  

That I'm not in disagreement with

It is a bit surprising how inefficient some cloud options can be for some workflows despite the cited ease of use etc.

[digitalcarbon]

valid points...i will plow ahead...and see what happens...i guess that after the project is done i could at least download all models as IGS or something & print pdfs...

 

 

[digitalcarbon]

thanks guys...now I'm thinking about...what if my heart stops, the government collapses, and my place burns down...

 

ignorance is bliss...

[Art V]

2 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

thanks guys...now I'm thinking about...what if my heart stops, the government collapses, and my place burns down...

 

ignorance is bliss...

Well.... if your heart stopping is the first thing that happens you don't need to worry about the rest anymore.

 

Besides that, a government collapsing could be a good thing. 

In Belgium they didn't have a new government for more than a year after elections once so the old government could only keep current things going and was not allowed to make major decisions. It was probably the best thing that happened to them as things went better during that time than when politicians could mess things up during the "normal" situation.

Apparently the ad-hoc reactions of politicians to public outcries and other things are not always the best decisions, not being able to do major things forced them to take more time, so less opportunity to mess things up. I know this does not always go that way (just look at some countries in the Middle East).

[digitalcarbon]

wait a minute...does not VW and all software for that matter, have some type of agreement/fine print, thing where they cannot be held liable if for some reason their software goes horribly wrong and wipes out all of your work...and burns your house down? I remember reading something like that back when i use to read all that stuff. (MiniCad 6 days)

[Art V]

Yes, and sometimes disclaimers that the product (software/hardware) is not suitable for mission critical things (e.g. nuclear power plants, space stations, life support systems etc.).

The difference is that banks, health organizations and health insurance companies etc. have a legal obligation to protect your personal data and in case of banks your assets. CAD companies have no legal obligation to protect your product data (i.e. drawings/models) so they can get away with that with a disclaimer whereas banks, etc. can't.

You may be able to claim damages but you would have to prove they have been lax with their security etc. which might be difficult if it does not happen to be a major security breach that got detected.

 

You may not even notice the security breach and your data being stolen (i.e. copied) until someone else files that patent that could have made you wealthy. So if you are planning to patent something, don't put your model and details in the cloud if you want to be safe.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Art V

[Christiaan]

5 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

BUT for the cloud...a total rework of the software & not just do a "VW in the cloud"  

 

Agree with this too. Shoehorning desktop VW into a browser will never suffice.

[Christiaan]

4 hours ago, Art V said:

I've been dealing with cloud providers offering services and citing convenience, group work, ease of access for teams etc. but when asked to sign a liability agreement for data that is to be treated as confidential they either reject or say they need to consult with a colleague internally and then never get back.

 

Perhaps that could be an area of competitive advantage for VW. Build a secure cloud CAD for architects and back it with liability agreements.

[zoomer]

19 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

Build a secure cloud CAD for architects and back it with liability agreements

 

There is no secure cloud.

Even the provider not giving away the data to third parties for which ever reasons or compulsions,

or super end to end encryption that my be broken some years later.

As long as data gets fished out of the internet and potentially stored you can't allow an internet connection at all.

And availability may be higher than on your server but it is not always there. If bad things happen you have no

influence and rely on the provider.

 

May not concern architects much, but some of their clients.

[Art V]

3 hours ago, Christiaan said:

 

Perhaps that could be an area of competitive advantage for VW. Build a secure cloud CAD for architects and back it with liability agreements.

If VW would pick up this glove I'm sure they would set a maximum for liability damages. Otherwise they'd go bankrupt if there would be a serious breach.

 

As @zoomermentioned, there is no secure cloud and you are at the mercy of the service provider. Even if they claim the files are encrypted you need to find out if they are still encrypted when editing the document while it resides on the cloud. There are several (potential) vulnerabilities in most lower-cost cloud implementations that need to be fixed first before I will consider it for non-trivial projects. A truly secure cloud is not going to be cheap nor simple/easy with all the security, access controls, checks and balances etc. implemented.

[Christiaan]

15 hours ago, zoomer said:

There is no secure cloud.

 

You can say the same thing about any CAD station or file server connected to the internet. But you can build cloud CAD with security as a priority.

 

12 hours ago, Art V said:

If VW would pick up this glove I'm sure they would set a maximum for liability damages. Otherwise they'd go bankrupt if there would be a serious breach.

 

Sure, but that's for insurance companies to figure out.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Christiaan

[zoomer]

Yes, for anything internet connected.

And not to forget the reliability of the internet connection itself

 

Do you want your data distributed over a cloud or VW being a cloud App too ?

[digitalcarbon]

just for the record, i just spent the last ~40hrs working with onshape.  while there were some refresh issues (it kicked me to the doc page and i needed to just open the doc that i was just in) i found it to be noticeably more stable than VW.  not one single crash or lost data due to a crash (vw crashes 2-7 times a day!) 

 

if you set vw to save your work every minute, then you would see that "save" lag in your work flow. there would be a time lag until you could do anything.  

 

however, with no saving of my work & no crashes over the past 40hrs...these hours have been a delight in productivity...

[digitalcarbon]

guy, i think we have had this discussion before. every new thing in history is met with concerns.

 

electricity will electrocute you and burn your house down...yet here we are

i will never draft on a computer, the screen is too small and the HD will die...yet here we are (i personally said this one)

 

if the government collapses then there is no legal system protecting you or your money in an FDIC bank

 

nothing is truly stable but only relatively stable

 

there is a generation of people who are use to Facebook, Amazon, eBay  "stable" so cloud cad is not a scary thing for them

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by digitalcarbon

[digitalcarbon]

the real live stats

 

after i got this area of the project to a point of satisfaction (goto meeting quality & sign-off) i then needed to prepare it for shop drawings 

needed 15hrs more in VW to tweak and clean for fab drawings (batch exporting of symbols is needed)

 

then Onshape for 51hrs to make 44 drawings (0.9hrs/sheet)

(learned that when you think your are done and ready for fab drawings...you really are not)

 

 

so the 51hrs on onshape was stable with absolutely no crashes nor data loss due to a crash before i save. (i save a lot)

 

and here is the biggie...i "released" 44 drawings w/o making any pdfs or fussing about issues # or uploading to Bluebeam Revu...etc.

 

i just sent an email saying "its there" for review & comment

 

So you can sign me up for VW cloud

 

 

 

 

 

[zoomer]

On 27.10.2017 at 0:47 PM, digitalcarbon said:

guy, i think we have had this discussion before. every new thing in history is met with concerns.

 

I always prefer new things over existing things.

I never had much emotions for things already existing. I find them boring and often annoying.

I am totally open for new things because at least there is a chance that something new may be better.

And I am one of the loudest here asking for gigantic changes in VW without caring about any legacy.

 

If the existing state is annoying look for change or something better.

All things have advantages, disadvantages and maybe even some risks.

If the ratio between these for something is fine for you, go for it.

If the ratio doesn't fit for benefit, go for something else.

 

Me personally, I currently don't see much annoyance in perpetual licensing and Apps on a local workstation

or a need to have global cloud access to work data for collaboration. In fact I even prefer it.

Doesn't mean that I don't use some cloud syncing in other areas.