Rob Books

Design Summit 2017 - Classing panel - Format Styles discussion

43 posts in this topic

To those of you who were in the Classing panel with myself, Tyler, Kevin, and Andrew;

We also discussed a format style that could be used at any point in the document, similar to a template but not just for the starting point of your drawing.  I am trying to write up something for this to see feasibility.  I need a little more information.  What sort of things would you want to see in this format style? What changes would you want to make with it?  How do you see it being used?

 

any feedback would be great, even if you were not in the panel discussion if you have any ideas on this, fire away.

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Great session. I think my team is going to adopt the numerical format that Andrew Dunning showed.

What would be very helpful is a tool to allow easy renaming of parent/child class names. For example, I've been playing with Braceworks and it has created several new classes. I'd like to rename/move them all under a master class of "rigging-". (Yes, I know I can change class setting at the start, but I'm think more about receiving files from others after the classes have already been created by others.

 

Thanks, Scott

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We were discussing the re-mapping of Classes yesterday, and seems we have a tool that is at least a start on the road.  it does not do the rename/move/merge on the fly, you need to run it after you import everything.  it is called "Class and Layer Mapping...", and unfortunately right now does not ship in the Spotlight space.  But you can add it in to your workspace.  of course, you can only reduce or rename classes, you can't expand a class into finer classing structure.  And the nice thing, after you set up a mapping, you can save it so you don't have to recreate it every time you run the command.  So you can have a saved mapping for everyone you normally deal with.  

 

once I have a better handle on it, I will see what improvements we need to request go into it.  I am also going to see if Jim or anyone else has a video of its use, if not will try to make one.

 

 

Edited by Rob Books

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Interesting. Falls short just slightly in that I'd want to select several classes and the parent in front of all selected. I just tested by selecting all the Braceworks classes and hitting "rename." I typed in my "rigging-" and it only changed the first of my list of chosen classes.

2017-09-26_12-01-44.jpeg

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I think maybe along with re-mapping, this raises the wish of true parent/child classes, where changing the parent name changes child names as well.  In addition, a class attribute could be set to "use parent," easily ensuring that certain attributes, styles, and textures are consistent among nested classes. 

 

That also means that creating a child class would create the parent class if none exists.  Currently, for example, in the class list above on the left, there is actually no Cable class, even there are Cable- subclasses.

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Agreed.

Since you mentioned the cable class, I've had to add Cable-Data-Cable since data cable can't live simply in Cable-Data.

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21 hours ago, JBenghiat said:

I think maybe along with re-mapping, this raises the wish of true parent/child classes, where changing the parent name changes child names as well.  In addition, a class attribute could be set to "use parent," easily ensuring that certain attributes, styles, and textures are consistent among nested classes. 

 

That also means that creating a child class would create the parent class if none exists.  Currently, for example, in the class list above on the left, there is actually no Cable class, even there are Cable- subclasses.

 

Just to ensure that I have your request correct for this:

1) If the parent name is changed, then that part of the Child name will also be Changed.  Ex: change from "Cable" to "06 Cable" would cause all Children to now be "06 Cable-"

2) Class attributes to include a "Use Parent" setting so that all settings could start at the Parent settings or be changed to them on a case by case basis.

3) if you create a Child Class, a default Parent class would be created. Ex: Create "Cable-Data" would also cause "Cable" to be created with default settings.

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Yes, please. Now that vectorworks has class information on all lighting symbols, cables, hoists, etc. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time cleaning up drawings. A rep plot from a theater may have started in Autocad, used in vectorworks for the 2015 season, then added new moving lights (and classes) in vectorworks 2017. I'll find classes for Rigging-Hoist-label, Rigging-Label, Motor-Name, (all for the same thing). I recently purchased an upgrade from Spotlight to Designer just so I could get the class mapping tool.

A search and replace for parent and child names would be great, as well as a more efficient way of merging classes. Until there are class naming standards for the theater like they have for Architecture, we'll have to spend a lot of time doing cleanup.

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9 hours ago, MSLD said:

Until there are class naming standards for the theater like they have for Architecture, we'll have to spend a lot of time doing cleanup.

one of the things we discussed at the Design summit Classing panel was that we should not wait for any of the bodies to get out of the stone age and come up with a classing list, rather Spotlight users should join behind a standard and teach that to their students so that it becomes the standard that is then pushed to be adopted by USITT and the others.  I know that the shipping class standard is not perfect, but it is a great starting point for users to branch out from and expand or contract as needed for their personal preferences.

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3 hours ago, Rob Books said:

one of the things we discussed at the Design summit Classing panel was that we should...come up with a classing list, rather Spotlight users should join behind a standard and teach that to their students so that it becomes the standard...

 

As a member of that panel, I don't know that I'd agree with that assessment.  It might be more accurate to say that VW should offer a SAMPLE (not imposed) structure and a robust over-ride/mapping system for those who find that sample to conflict with proven work-flows.  Also, if VW is going to push a structure standard (Classes and Layers), it has to be one that doesn't contradict "best-practices" paradigm given for other disciplines as the current offering does.

 

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Hello,

Just showing this in case this is useful to the discussion. Here in Australia we have the:

Edit Class Names Utility

It lets you quickly search for and edit multiple class names in one hit.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit class names dialogue.jpg

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On 10/5/2017 at 9:56 AM, C. Andrew Dunning said:

 

As a member of that panel, I don't know that I'd agree with that assessment.  It might be more accurate to say that VW should offer a SAMPLE (not imposed) structure and a robust over-ride/mapping system for those who find that sample to conflict with proven work-flows.  Also, if VW is going to push a structure standard (Classes and Layers), it has to be one that doesn't contradict "best-practices" paradigm given for other disciplines as the current offering does.

 

I completely agree!
I often have to trade files with Architects and Engineers and I have it easy only dealing with USA firms. Absolutely nothing about the current class structure complies with typical AIA standards. When you can herd those cats into a neat standard I'll come along.

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Dear Scott,

It's one of the local add ons we have just for our Australian users. However I posted it as I thought it might be useful for someone to maybe add as an enhancement request or something.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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I too have begun implementing an organizational structure based on Andrew's and find it very intuitive.  I very much look forward to a re-mapping tool.   I mentioned in the class (and have zero affiliation with)   SmartPaste,  which is a 3rd party plug-in, behaves similarly to the above screen shots but when pasting from one doc to another, (or within the same doc).   Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be 2018 ready yet. And it too falls short with bulk re-naming.   The UI is also very similar to the above tool.  Bulk re-naming would be huge.   Along with true parent/child class relationships like Josh said.   But if I had to only pick one, a robust class mapping tool would be my #1.  (then parent/child,  then any sort of default template adjustments)

 

So the above "Classes and Layer Mapping" tool isn't just hiding outside the Spotlight workspace?  It's just not with the Spotlight only version at all I take it?   

 

BTW,  thanks for following up on this disccusion Rob!

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-10-12 at 2.12.13 PM.png

Edited by Wesley Burrows
spelling fail

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Yes, it seems they thought it might not be necessary for Spotlight.  we have put in a bug report to get it added, so hopefully it will be added sooner than later to the Spotlight workspace.

 

on a separate note, I have been giving thought to the classing of the 3D objects and other than the Inputs, I may be removing the classing  for 2019 on the 3D geometry.  I say may because it depends on if the Higher-ups will let me take the time to do it.  it is easy, but will take some time with all the files we have.

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Following this very closely. Thanks Rob & panel. It was a very interesting discussion @ the Summit & I'm glad to see it getting legs here. I'm looking at the archaic & acad based ABTT standards and how to respect those who swear & abide by them while offering students an updated & well considered structure in VW.

On a related note & it may be heresy to say this but for standards to be universally accepted in the industry and in the different territories I believe we should also consider, if only obliquely, the pov of users of other software.

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People use other software than Spotlight to design Their light plots in?  NEVER! ;-)

I feel that the structure I came up with, would fit well globally and across any platform that is a full CAD product (don't know enough on Sketchup to understand it's use of layers/Classes/whatever it would be called).  but them I am partial to it.

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5 hours ago, Rob Books said:

Yes, it seems they thought it might not be necessary for Spotlight.  we have put in a bug report to get it added, so hopefully it will be added sooner than later to the Spotlight workspace.

 

on a separate note, I have been giving thought to the classing of the 3D objects and other than the Inputs, I may be removing the classing  for 2019 on the 3D geometry.  I say may because it depends on if the Higher-ups will let me take the time to do it.  it is easy, but will take some time with all the files we have.

 

Please do not remove the classes on the body parts. I think it is important to be able to use Classing to render the bodies, and especially add closing to the lens object.

 

Obviously, I want to be able to define the attributes and use the class to assign attributes. Use attributes at creation should be checked in the class definitions.

 

 

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Personally I have been using my own classing type for the past 6 or 7 years and the new one imposed by VW only makes me have to do some more work... But I also see the need for it, that's why I started my own some years ago. Any chance this could be set in some kind of user defaults? That way it can be translated from user to user but keeping the same file..

 

Also, loved the Edit Class names available in Australia, second that to be included!

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19 hours ago, Gaspar Potocnik said:

Personally I have been using my own classing type for the past 6 or 7 years and the new one imposed by VW only makes me have to do some more work... But I also see the need for it, that's why I started my own some years ago. Any chance this could be set in some kind of user defaults? That way it can be translated from user to user but keeping the same file..

 

Also, loved the Edit Class names available in Australia, second that to be included!

since Classes are by file, not by user, I doubt you could re-map and not have it stay with the document.  it would overwrite the classes currently in the document.  

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I keep as many classes as possible in my template. So, I have, for example, renamed the the Dimension class and changed the attributes that always works. 

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Love the "Edit Class Names" in Oz. What would it take to get it in the US?

Symbols having embedded classes can be useful, but there are always different ways of categorizing objects. Rather than deleting all the classes in 2019, we need a more efficient way to rename and work with large blocks of classes

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9 hours ago, MSLD said:

Love the "Edit Class Names" in Oz. What would it take to get it in the US?

Symbols having embedded classes can be useful, but there are always different ways of categorizing objects. Rather than deleting all the classes in 2019, we need a more efficient way to rename and work with large blocks of classes

 

The symbols would still insert by class, I am looking at changing up the 3D geometry to match our other content and be on the None Class.  and this would only be the 3D geometry, and probably only the Lighting instruments and Audio Speakers.  I think Truss should stay on the Rigging-Truss-Truss class.

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