Question: Vectorworks is more stable in Mac or PC

[FBernardo]

Hi all,

 

I was wondering in which environment the Vectorworks is more productive(stable) Mac or PC, i'm a PC user and besides the obvious differences in the hardware i always liked and questioned this since i started using vectorworks ( as i know it was first developed for mac system). The compatibility and possibility to use other software besides vectorworks in our office (the answer i got from my colleagues and the fact they don't like MacOS) i seem to find that all of my colleagues complain about the crashes when it we try to make some more "tricky" or complicated structures (if you can call it like that), i've been experiencing it myself with a lot of crashes that honestly do slow down our work. 

 

So my natural questions are:

 

- Is Mac version more stable than PC?

- Mac files are compatible with PC version?

 

Note: all the issues have been reported to the vectorworks team and while some obviously are our fault on designing the complicated forms others apparently are bugs that we discovered.

 

Many thanks to you all for your help and opinions.

[zoomer]

1.

Mac of course 

@JimWhas to look into crash logs first

But I think there will not be much difference.

 

2.

Yes, you can share files between both Systems.

I doesn't matter if users uploading any demo files here on the forum are on Mac or PC

if I want to open such a file on my Mac.

[FBernardo]

1 minute ago, zoomer said:

1.

Mac of course 

@JimWhas to look into crash logs first

But I think there will not be much difference.

 

On this mark, can you elaborate a bit more please, because i'm trying to understand if it's worth the money change from PC to Mac (which is quite expensive) and i need quite a few strong points! 

 

1 minute ago, zoomer said:

 

2.

Yes, you can share files between both Systems.

I doesn't matter if users uploading any demo files here on the forum are on Mac or PC

if I want to open such a file on my Mac.

 

many thanks for your reply!

[zoomer]

I have no strong arguments.

I think stability of VW is equal on both systems.

If you need to run a lot of PC-only Apps beside VW or the rest of the office prefers PCs

it doesn't make much sense to switch.

[FBernardo]

Indeed, that is why i was kinda trying to understand if there was a massive difference between both environments as to switch it would need to be strong and valid points... 

 

Although i'm quite curious on trying vectorworks on a mac, but sadly i don't know anyone with a mac i can loan to stress test it on.

 

Again many thanks for your insight!

[michaelk]

I don't think you'll find a major difference.  The important thing is to get a computer that can handle VW well.  That means SSD, good graphics cards, lots of RAM, lots of VRAM.  etc.

 

i.e., not a cheap computer. 

[Art V]

As already mentioned the difference will be minor from a stability and performance perspective.
I know people who complain about their windows machine crashing all the time, and those who don't have that problem.
I also know people who complain about their mac crashing all the time and those who don't have that problem.

If there is one advantage for Windows it is the choice of additional CAD programs, and in my case GIS programs as well, as the options on the Mac are less than on Windows in that regard or more limited in features in case that matters to you. (e.g. AutoCAD for Mac is considerably less specced than the Windows counterpart, though there are some other CAD programs where this is less of an issue. Commercial GIS software is often Windows only so that would require using Bootcamp or virtual machines).

If you are happy with the OS you are currently using then there is little reason to switch, except if you have specific requirements that cannot be met on the OS of choice.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Art V

[Art V]

2 hours ago, michaelk said:

i.e., not a cheap computer. 

Well... unless you have a lot of time on your hands

[michaelk]

1 hour ago, Art V said:

If you are happy with the OS you are currently using then there is little reason to switch, except if you have specific requirements that cannot be met on the OS of choice.

 

 

Agreed.  Use whatever you - or someone who likes you well enough to take your panicked phone calls - can fix.

[Jeremy Best]

@FBernardoI provide Technical Support for Vectorworks customers in New Zealand. Before I say this, to be fair I must concede that I don't have current knowledge of the proportions of Mac vs Windows users in our customer-base, but a few years ago it was regularly proclaimed in our office that it was 50/50. 

 

Since September 2016 I have had: 

• 49 Mac users submit a 'problem'
• 86 Windows users submit a 'problem' 

I would like to add: 

• Many of the Windows users that have problems require a fix or intervention done to an aspect of their operating system to enable Vectorworks to function normally. Most of these would be updating graphics card drivers, sometimes reinstalling them. Whereas this type of thing is never required for Mac users because all that finicky time-consuming tech stuff is handled by Apple for you in their updates. Windows does have Automatic updates, but is obviously unreliable. 
• I'm struggling to recall a job across the above period that required any intervention with a Mac operating system. 
• IBM released a study showing that Apple computers cost less over their lifetime because they require less I.T. intervention or repairs: "just 5 percent of IBM’s Mac users needed to call the help desk; In contrast, an astonishing 40 percent of PC staff request tech support help."  
• I've watched many YouTube channels where the computer geek presenter/s concede that Apple is largely equally priced now, if not better when you consider the free productivity software etc they come with. See: http://www.pcgamer.com/apples-new-imac-pro-costs-5000-but-is-it-overpriced/ 
• As for the proportion of actual bugs in the Mac vs Windows implementation of the software, I'm not sure about that, but it might be helpful to consider that while there are bugs that affect both platforms, there are those that affect one and not the other, but these proportions could vary between updates let alone between versions. 

As a qualified Product Designer I appreciate the importance of producing well-researched design solutions that work and are intuitive for the greatest number of people at once. - That's what Apple does. I don't know if they still do, but I heard that their operating system designers used to be guided by the mantra "three clicks to anywhere" when navigating your computer. It still works for everything I just tested. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Jeremy Best
Additional point and grammatical corrections.

[FBernardo]

8 hours ago, Jeremy Best said:

@FBernardoI provide Technical Support for Vectorworks customers in New Zealand. Before I say this, to be fair I must concede that I don't have current knowledge of the proportions of Mac vs Windows users in our customer-base, but a few years ago it was regularly proclaimed in our office that it was 50/50. 

 

Since September 2016 I have had: 

• 49 Mac users submit a 'problem'
• 86 Windows users submit a 'problem' 

I would like to add: 

• Many of the Windows users that have problems require a fix or intervention done to an aspect of their operating system to enable Vectorworks to function normally. Most of these would be updating graphics card drivers, sometimes reinstalling them. Whereas this type of thing is never required for Mac users because all that finicky time-consuming tech stuff is handled by Apple for you in their updates. Windows does have Automatic updates, but is obviously unreliable. 
• I'm struggling to recall a job across the above period that required any intervention with a Mac operating system. 
• IBM released a study showing that Apple computers cost less over their lifetime because they require less I.T. intervention or repairs: "just 5 percent of IBM’s Mac users needed to call the help desk; In contrast, an astonishing 40 percent of PC staff request tech support help."  
• I've watched many YouTube channels where the computer geek presenter/s concede that Apple is largely equally priced now, if not better when you consider the free productivity software etc they come with. See: http://www.pcgamer.com/apples-new-imac-pro-costs-5000-but-is-it-overpriced/ 
• As for the proportion of actual bugs in the Mac vs Windows implementation of the software, I'm not sure about that, but it might be helpful to consider that while there are bugs that affect both platforms, there are those that affect one and not the other, but these proportions could vary between updates let alone between versions. 

As a qualified Product Designer I appreciate the importance of producing well-researched design solutions that work and are intuitive for the greatest number of people at once. - That's what Apple does. I don't know if they still do, but I heard that their operating system designers used to be guided by the mantra "three clicks to anywhere" when navigating your computer. It still works for everything I just tested. 

 

 

Thanks a lot for your insight and input on this, as with access to numbers and %'s we can have a more detailed and to be fair we can make a more technical decision by having the numbers to back up, while i do know that in the IT world when something has to crash it will crash doesn't matter if it's windows or MacOS... and while it's fully understandable that if the software is working similarly in both systems just a matter of "preference" for one system against the other is just not good enough but in a working environment we need the productivity to be at it's peek and not constantly thinking of if it's going to crash and lose work (even though you have backup's set in place and a constant CTRL + S to save) we do end up always to lose work and have to do it again, that is why I'm trying to gather the more opinions on this subject so i can come to a point if there is a possibility with our IT Company to lend out hardware to do a full trial on how the software would run...

 

A question is the licence the same for both systems?
 

[zoomer]

I think yes.

I could also download the Windows Version.

 

There are several licensing types, so maybe not all of them but

I don't think it would be a problem to switch if necessary.

[PVA - Admin]

E series licensing (The standard pro type) is the same for both Mac and Windows. I am fairly confident this is now globally how it is handled, but if you are located in the UK then yes the license should work for either, you'd just need different installers.

I would say from personal experience, Windows tends to have more, but smaller and easily fixed problems, whereas some Mac problems are fewer but can be unfixable because of OS updates. However, this trend seems to be changing and genuine bugs (ie not a problem that turned out to be operator error) tend to more and more often be cross platform. 

(I do want to take a look at the analytics to see if my personal impressions match the concrete data, but I have a few items to tend to from the last week that I need to clear up first.)

[Art V]

3 hours ago, FBernardo said:

 

 

Thanks a lot for your insight and input on this, as with access to numbers and %'s we can have a more detailed and to be fair we can make a more technical decision by having the numbers to back up, while i do know that in the IT world when something has to crash it will crash doesn't matter if it's windows or MacOS... and while it's fully understandable that if the software is working similarly in both systems just a matter of "preference" for one system against the other is just not good enough but in a working environment we need the productivity to be at it's peek and not constantly thinking of if it's going to crash and lose work (even though you have backup's set in place and a constant CTRL + S to save) we do end up always to lose work and have to do it again, that is why I'm trying to gather the more opinions on this subject so i can come to a point if there is a possibility with our IT Company to lend out hardware to do a full trial on how the software would run...

 

A question is the licence the same for both systems?
 

Well, I beg to differ a little with the IBM article that Jeremy provided.

That article doesn't specify the hardware and OS version(s) used other than Apple or PC, whether there is a 64- or 32-bit OS on the machines, nor the kind of user and what they are doing and what software is installed etc. as that can make quite a bit of difference. So without further context the percentages don't give enough information on whether the outcome is relevant for your situation or not.

What I have noticed over the past few years is that from an OS perspective there is little difference between MacOS and Windows 7 and up when it comes to ease of use on a working system, both have their strengths and weaknesses but in the grand scheme of things it is the user that makes the difference these days and the hardware itself. Crappy hardware will give you a crappy experience.

 

Apple may have some advantages when it comes to automatically updating things as it controls both the hardware and software, but the overall flexibility is less than with most Windows machines except for the most expensive models. Otoh the flexibility in hardware on the Windows side also means a greater chance for incompatibility or messing things up, but once you have a working system and update the required drivers when needed, e.g. when the graphics card software informs you there is a new version, then it should be more or less even. Apple OS updates can and do break things at times, just like Windows updates can and do at times.

Then it comes down to the user and the installed software and how that user is working on the system.
So I would suggest to look at your software needs/wants/requirements first, then see if it works on the computer platform you are interested in. If one or two programs cannot run on that platform (not available or for another reason) and there is no suitable alternative then use the platform that does meet your needs. No matter which platform you use, there may be hard- or software issues to deal with that may or may not be related to the OS. The key is getting the hardware basis right, the rest should be manageable.

 

[FBernardo]

4 minutes ago, Art V said:

Well, I beg to differ a little with the IBM article that Jeremy provided.

That article doesn't specify the hardware and OS version(s) used other than Apple or PC, whether there is a 64- or 32-bit OS on the machines, nor the kind of user and what they are doing and what software is installed etc. as that can make quite a bit of difference. So without further context the percentages don't give enough information on whether the outcome is relevant for your situation or not.

What I have noticed over the past few years is that from an OS perspective there is little difference between MacOS and Windows 7 and up when it comes to ease of use on a working system, both have their strengths and weaknesses but in the grand scheme of things it is the user that makes the difference these days and the hardware itself. Crappy hardware will give you a crappy experience.

 

Apple may have some advantages when it comes to automatically updating things as it controls both the hardware and software, but the overall flexibility is less than with most Windows machines except for the most expensive models. Otoh the flexibility in hardware on the Windows side also means a greater chance for incompatibility or messing things up, but once you have a working system and update the required drivers when needed, e.g. when the graphics card software informs you there is a new version, then it should be more or less even. Apple OS updates can and do break things at times, just like Windows updates can and do at times.

Then it comes down to the user and the installed software and how that user is working on the system.
So I would suggest to look at your software needs/wants/requirements first, then see if it works on the computer platform you are interested in. If one or two programs cannot run on that platform (not available or for another reason) and there is no suitable alternative then use the platform that does meet your needs. No matter which platform you use, there may be hard- or software issues to deal with that may or may not be related to the OS. The key is getting the hardware basis right, the rest should be manageable.

 

 

I'm not a pro or even an expert user, still learning and will go into a training programme to learn more about it, but overall experience until now, i've seen the software being very unstable, and both my colleagues that use vectorworks for far longer and had already training in it, say it crashes a lot. I also might be doing some stuff the wrong way and make the software to crash which is more likely be the case. In these last months we've being submitting quite a few reports of crashes and things (like roofs) missing on the rendering but in Opengl they are visible and so on... 

 

In our case i don't know if we should or not improve by completely change the environment or just ask for a hardware improvement as the machines are mostly even,

 

I5 6500 3.2ghz

16gb ram

Gtx 1060

250gb HD (don't know if SSD or HDD)

 

The only thing i believe we should probably to upgrade would be the CPU to an i7 7700k or Ryzen 7 1800x (with more cores) but will vectorworks take full advantage of this core increase? 

I also believe that it's already fully compatible with the Ryzen CPU's architecture correct?

 

[Art V]

 

19 minutes ago, FBernardo said:

 

I'm not a pro or even an expert user, still learning and will go into a training programme to learn more about it, but overall experience until now, i've seen the software being very unstable, and both my colleagues that use vectorworks for far longer and had already training in it, say it crashes a lot. I also might be doing some stuff the wrong way and make the software to crash which is more likely be the case. In these last months we've being submitting quite a few reports of crashes and things (like roofs) missing on the rendering but in Opengl they are visible and so on... 

 

In our case i don't know if we should or not improve by completely change the environment or just ask for a hardware improvement as the machines are mostly even,

 

I5 6500 3.2ghz

16gb ram

Gtx 1060

250gb HD (don't know if SSD or HDD)

 

The only thing i believe we should probably to upgrade would be the CPU to an i7 7700k or Ryzen 7 1800x (with more cores) but will vectorworks take full advantage of this core increase? 

I also believe that it's already fully compatible with the Ryzen CPU's architecture correct?

 

I see that you have a 250GB HD.

 

The first thing that comes to mind now is how much free space do you have left?

Available space on your system HD/partition can be a factor as well, especially if the HD is split in two partitions, one for C and one for data, then it could be that the C partition is running out of space. Free space should preferably be at least 15% of the partition size but 20% would be better.

 

Second question given the small size of your HD if it used for both OS and working files, are your working files stored on your HD or on a network drive, if on the network drive then it could be a connectivity issue and you may want to look at your network.

Upgrading to a Ryzen will mean getting a new motherboard as well, as well as reinstalling the OS etc.. Upgrading to an i7 can only be done if there is still an i7 available for the socket on your motherboard.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Art V

[FBernardo]

1 minute ago, Art V said:

 

I see that you have a 250GB HD.

 

The first thing that comes to mind now is how much free space do you have left?

Available space on your system HD/partition can be a factor as well, especially if the HD is split in two partitions, one for C and one for data, then it could be that the C partition is running out of space. Free space should preferably be at least 15% of the partition size but 20% would be better.

 

Second question given the small size of your HD if it used for both OS and working files, are your working files stored on your HD or on a network drive, if on the network drive then it could be a connectivity issue and you may want to look at your network.

 

the HDD is just used for the software, the working files are all in network drive, and there is (apparently and that i detected) any issues with the network and when the software is working the file is in cache on the machine ( i believe it's how it works in my logic as in the case the networks comes down the file doesn't get lost).

 

But you mentioned only the HDD so i'm guessing the CPU is ok? we intend to start using a lot more of Renderworks which in my idea and knowledge would be quite a bit hard on it as it only has 2 cores...

[Art V]

Just now, FBernardo said:

 

the HDD is just used for the software, the working files are all in network drive, and there is (apparently and that i detected) any issues with the network and when the software is working the file is in cache on the machine ( i believe it's how it works in my logic as in the case the networks comes down the file doesn't get lost).

 

But you mentioned only the HDD so i'm guessing the CPU is ok? we intend to start using a lot more of Renderworks which in my idea and knowledge would be quite a bit hard on it as it only has 2 cores...

I just checked the processor details as you said it only has two cores. It should have 4 cores, so are you really sure it only has two cores? If it does report 2 cores then there might be something wrong with the processor which could explain the crashing in that case.

 

My desktop i5 is two generations older than yours and has 4 cores. It works nicely on most documents including relatively complex 3D files. An i7 will get you more speed but not necessarily more stability and that seems to be your biggest issue.
 

[FBernardo]

1 minute ago, Art V said:

I just checked the processor details as you said it only has two cores. It should have 4 cores, so are you really sure it only has two cores? If it does report 2 cores then there might be something wrong with the processor which could explain the crashing in that case.

 

My desktop i5 is two generations older than yours and has 4 cores. It works nicely on most documents including relatively complex 3D files. An i7 will get you more speed but not necessarily more stability and that seems to be your biggest issue.
 

 

apologies, indeed it has 4 cores my bad, don't know where i got that idea then...

 

The HDD has around 100gb free space... 

 

I can give you a fair example of something that is happening constantly even on the simplest file with just like 6 walls and a roof,

using the Flyover tool it works smoothly and fantastic, but if i use the CTRL + middle button in the mouse, it just goes crazy and kinda looks the gfx are crashing or something, I don't believe this is from the GPU drivers as if it were when i go and click the flyover icon would do the same crashing effect but it doesn't... Any ideas ?

 

 

[Urbanist]

23 hours ago, FBernardo said:

 

Hi all,

The compatibility and possibility to use other software besides vectorworks in our office (the answer i got from my colleagues and the fact they don't like MacOS)

Well, one can have Windows installed on a Mac and run it either separately (rebooted) or simultaneously (needs tons of RAM). 

 

In my experience there are few people who wish to move from the Mac to Windows, even former Windows users generally prefer the Mac. I've dealt with an AutoCAD power user, who after some monhs of pondering, switched to VW and Mac as his colleagues in the office he was hired to be the AutoCAD man, were so much faster and less frustrated, producing superior drawings without sweat. Discipline was landscape architecture, large scale. 

 

However, the current Mac line is obviously somewhat problematic as comes to VW's requirements. 

[Art V]

100 GB free space is plenty.

I just created 6 walls and a roof and didn't experience the issue you have. If possible could you share that file you just described? Then I will try it out on my system and see what happens. It could be something in the file depending on how it was created.

 

[FBernardo]

1 minute ago, Art V said:

100 GB free space is plenty.

I just created 6 walls and a roof and didn't experience the issue you have. If possible could you share that file you just described? Then I will try it out on my system and see what happens. It could be something in the file depending on how it was created.

 

 

 

It was happening on my colleague's computer which is the same pc build as mine, (although on mine doesn't happen that often it does sometimes) one big issue we're facing is whenever he creates a viewport to use an external file to add it to the current drawing, the Roof disappears and even the VW support team doesn't know why and send it back to the main developer... 

[Art V]

1 minute ago, Urbanist said:

Well, one can have Windows installed on a Mac and run it either separately (rebooted) or simultaneously (needs tons of RAM). 

 

In my experience there are few people who wish to move from the Mac to Windows, even former Windows users generally prefer the Mac. I've dealt with an AutoCAD power user, who after some monhs of pondering, switched to VW and Mac as his colleagues in the office he was hired to be the AutoCAD man, were so much faster and less frustrated, producing superior drawings without sweat. Discipline was landscape architecture, large scale. 

 

However, the current Mac line is obviously somewhat problematic as comes to VW's requirements. 

I know what you mean with Mac vs PC and  AutoCAD vs VW. It is that VW cannot meet certain client requirements for specific dwg based documents (mostly text styles , fonts and a few other things) or I would completely drop AutoCAD. Plus that I have some other software requirements that make Windows more suitable for me at the moment. I do recall a project where a render within autocad took an hour for one image, where a render of that same dwg file imported into VW only took 5 minutes with much better quality. There were about 10 renders to be done, so you can do the math   This was one of the reasons for me to drop AutoCAD for the kind of 3D work I do. Plus VW being faster, more efficient and smoother to use for that.

It wasn't until Windows 98 that I was willing to even consider Windows as an option in case AutoCAD would no longer be available on Mac (at that time they left the Mac and only returned a few years ago).
Though I have good experiences with Windows, my PC's are generally very stable with very few issues and usability is more or less the same, certainly not more than Mac's based on what I see on this forum. (Though I do build them myself and don't rely on pre-build with loaded trials etc.)

[Art V]

1 minute ago, FBernardo said:

 

 

It was happening on my colleague's computer which is the same pc build as mine, (although on mine doesn't happen that often it does sometimes) one big issue we're facing is whenever he creates a viewport to use an external file to add it to the current drawing, the Roof disappears and even the VW support team doesn't know why and send it back to the main developer... 

Now, that is interesting with regard to the external file. Though using viewports for external files can at times be a bit of a pain depending on contents and where and how the viewport is created.

Usually I put external files into a blank VW document of its own and make sure it only contains what I need and then link to that so as little as possible extraneous stuff is loaded. That seems to minimize potential issues for me.

From my experience, if the hardware specs are the same and one person has more issues/crashes with the same or a similar drawing than someone else then it is either a hardware issue or how that person is using the software. If you have time you may want to sit down together and see if there are things you are doing differently. If you are doing the same things the same way and your colleague's VW crashes and yours doesn't then I'd try another drawing and if the same happens then I'd take a closer look at the hardware components. But it may not explain all issues.

[FBernardo]

22 minutes ago, Art V said:

Now, that is interesting with regard to the external file. Though using viewports for external files can at times be a bit of a pain depending on contents and where and how the viewport is created.

Usually I put external files into a blank VW document of its own and make sure it only contains what I need and then link to that so as little as possible extraneous stuff is loaded. That seems to minimize potential issues for me.

From my experience, if the hardware specs are the same and one person has more issues/crashes with the same or a similar drawing than someone else then it is either a hardware issue or how that person is using the software. If you have time you may want to sit down together and see if there are things you are doing differently. If you are doing the same things the same way and your colleague's VW crashes and yours doesn't then I'd try another drawing and if the same happens then I'd take a closer look at the hardware components. But it may not explain all issues.

 

I have uploaded the files in this post as specific for that issue... LINK (if you could have a look and any insight)