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VW 2018 (and VW2021): Push-pull tool problems continue

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This is a continuation of an issue that I was already having in 2017. Mentioned in a couple of threads by me and others previously without much response.

 

Essentially: the push pull tool (a) struggles to select faces, (b) fails completely to select faces, or (c) causes a freeze with spinning beachball when there are moderately complex objects in the drawing.

 

As far as I can work out, it happens as soon as one of those objects is behind whatever face you are trying to select.

 

This has been a big problem in a drawing where I had a few imported symbols (from BIMobject and elsewhere). It became impossible to use the push-pull tool to edit simple objects in the drawings, unless I hid all of those complex objects. To make sure this isn't a problem specific to that drawing file, I've created a new and fairly simple one in VW2018. If anyone would like to see if they can replicate this, here is what I did:

- new blank file.

- go to BIMobject download. I downloaded fairly much at random a server unit casing, in SKP format. If you type "sr25ub" into the BIMobject search bar you should find it.

- I placed two of these units next to each other

- then I drew a simple extruded rectangle, sitting next to them. See screenshots below.

- one of the screenshots has a viewpoint with the extruded block to the left. using this viewpoint, the push-pull tool will select any face on the white block easily and correctly, and function as expected.

- however - the other screenshot has a viewpoint with the server units hiding behind the white block. using this viewpoint, the push pull tool struggles to select the face of the white block at all, and I get freezes and spinning beachballs.

 

This doesn't seem like an overly complex drawing. My machine specs are posted down below. It's a refurbed/upgraded mac pro.

 

I've attached the drawing file too.

 

59bd3d78d32a4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_02_53.jpg.e9043ca56dc3ed4919e344efdbcd1f02.jpg59bd3d798fe99_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_03_19.jpg.437b1738a6ed59d21ddb58013a3dfaa1.jpg

 

59bd3edcc19d4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_08_49.jpg.e5d138baa2d8aeba883def3c0d5275d5.jpg

pptest.vwx

Edited by line-weight

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1 hour ago, Jesse Cogswell said:

My biggest problem is that it doesn't do resize operations, it just adds or subtracts a solid.

 

 

I think you are in PPT's first mode.

I only use this when preferred second mode fails !

(And do a convert to generic solid afterwards)

 

Normally you can use the 2nd Mode which will just convert higher elements

down to generic solids or just edit and keep generic solids ....

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Wow, I guess I was so mad about the primary mode that I never even tried the secondary mode.  This is for sure cleaner, and also a handy way to continue editing and modeling Generic Solids which are traditionally locked items.

 

I learned something new today.

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On 11/21/2018 at 2:23 PM, PVA - Jim said:


Simply because we have not yet found a way to solve the problem. However, this issue was already pulled and listed as a usability priority and engineering is very aware of it. Last I heard there were a few different methods that might possibly solve it, but the bug was not listed as fixed for SP2.

 

Can anyone from VW advise whether anything at all is being done about this? The comment above is from more than two years ago.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/1/2018 at 5:22 PM, line-weight said:

Here's another recording of the typical push-pull tool problems I'm having.

 

- This file was created from scratch in 2018. Not converted from an earlier version (unlike the recording I posted further up)

- The PP tool has mostly been behaving itself in this file until now. Has it reached some level of complexity that triggers the problems?

- You can see that for some reason it works ok when 'outside' of the building, but not inside.

- This file contains no imported bim objects or complicated symbols. In the recording I've shown one symbol that's in view, and you can see it's not a complex one.

- Even if I delete that symbol, and the door and window objects visible, the problem remains

- You can see that the only way I can edit that object with the PP tool is by making it a group, and then going into the group.

- Doing a cmd-F to bring the object to the 'front' has no effect.

 

This problem seriously hinders the ease with which I can work on 3D models.

 


Hi, I just happen to see this post. I experience something similar. When certain classes are turned off (i.e. walls) it still is in the way using push/pull tool or even a 2D line or polygon tool to reach a surface. My way around it (although not a perfect solution) is to set 'Class Options' in Navigation Palette to 'Show others'. Then the tool will not snap to the hidden class.

Edited by C.T
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2 hours ago, C.T said:


Hi, I just happen to see this post. I experience something similar. When certain classes are turned off (i.e. walls) it still is in the way using push/pull tool or even a 2D line or polygon tool to reach a surface. My way around it (although not a perfect solution) is to set 'Class Options' in Navigation Palette to 'Show others'. Then the tool will not snap to the hidden class.

 

That's very interesting - I've just tried this and it definitely makes a difference.

 

Unfortunately, having classes set to "show others" is not a feasible workaround because any model is going to include objects in a number of classes, so you'd need to be constantly changing the active class.

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I would like to offer this screen recording as an example. This is a pretty basic, incomplete early-stage model in VW2021. It doesn't contain anything particularly complicated and it's not a big file. In the first part of the recording note how the regular pointer tool highlights/selects almost all elements reliably. In the second half, note that only some faces of some objects are picked up by the push-pull tool. Not only that, but in several cases, a random face somewhere else on a different object is highlighted. This is not unique to this file. It's obvious that this is not working properly.

 

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Interesting.

I have seen similar lately when Testing the "Cutter" (?) Tool in a 3D View.

It highlights the Object that will be cut, but sometimes it highlighted

objects far away from cursor too.

 

Is it a difference, in orthogonal vs perspective mode ?

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I've been doing the 'show others' work around lately just to get some basic initial massing going.

I have to say as a recent convert, I often find the 3D modeling (and navigation) in VW infuriatingly ham-fisted.

 

 @line-weight  your last video shows you selecting an object and then trying the PPT - I would love if you could select an object and have the PPT only effect that object.

Seems like a simple 'selected object only' toggle would not hurt the old school users who want no change, but would make modeling so much cleaner for those of us who brainstorm in 3D.

 

I'm actually glad to see more experienced users also raising issues. I've been told that VW  "isn't a polygon modeling tool", but the biggest part of why I bought in is because of all the videos the pushing how great the 3D modeling tools are.

 

Honestly as a landscape designer all the plant and sitemodel tools will keep me here - but some basic rethinking of the modeling and 3D navigation would not hurt.

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On 11/21/2018 at 6:23 AM, PVA - Jim said:

...and gets more and more obvious the twitchier you are with the mouse (I am VERY twitchy with my mouse) ...

 

Just wanted to say, that as a wacom tablet user, there is no way in VW to NOT be really twitchy.

 

I'm not sure what it is but the VW engine amplifies the native 'no rest' of a wacom pen hovering over a tablet in a way I've not seen in other programs.

And I've had 20 some odd years of wacom and 3D experience.

 

Might be nice for your engineers to have a tablet or two on hand - even if we tablet users are few!

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3 hours ago, zoomer said:

Interesting.

I have seen similar lately when Testing the "Cutter" (?) Tool in a 3D View.

It highlights the Object that will be cut, but sometimes it highlighted

objects far away from cursor too.

 

Is it a difference, in orthogonal vs perspective mode ?

 

What do you mean by 'cutter' tool?

 

Here is the same model, viewed in orthogonal rather than perspective mode. I would say the PP tool appears to behave a bit better? There are now not many faces that I'm unable to highlight. However, this is not much good for me. I am used to flying around in perspective and find the orthogonal view very awkward to navigate. Also, part of the point of perspective is to gain a good understanding of what something actually looks like, whilst working on it.

 

 

 

So is it that the VW engineers never tested the PP tool in a perspective view? Or is it that I am not supposed to be attempting such operations in a perspective view?

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2 hours ago, hollister design Studio said:

 

 @line-weight  your last video shows you selecting an object and then trying the PPT - I would love if you could select an object and have the PPT only effect that object.

Seems like a simple 'selected object only' toggle would not hurt the old school users who want no change, but would make modeling so much cleaner for those of us who brainstorm in 3D.

 

Sometimes having an object selected makes it slightly more likely that the PPT will work on it.

 

Actually, an additional step of selecting an object before using the PPT, if that made things work, would be irritating but far less irritating than the current situation.

 

Sometimes I resort to putting something into a group, then editing within the group with "show other objects" switched off, just to get the PPT to work.

 

I'm a bit mystified why there aren't lots of people complaining about this. Is it because it's only me having the issues, because of some weird hardware combination? Or is it that actually only a tiny fraction of VW users actually try and model in 3d like this?

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Hi @line-weight, cant say I have had the same problem, I'm using VW2021 and not experienced this problem.

One thing you could check is try changing you snap settings and see if that makes any difference.

 

A little trick regarding BimObjects, they do tend to be over modelled, just like in your example of the server unit case, most people who download only want  to see the external shape and do not care to much about what's inside however some people just like modelling and we end up with Bimobjects that come in really bloated. Add onto that they come in as mesh objects.

Here is the trick... download your BimObjhect into a blank file, select the object and ... convert to "MESH"... then with it selected convert to "Generic Solid" and see what you get 😀

 

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16 minutes ago, axhake said:

Hi @line-weight, cant say I have had the same problem, I'm using VW2021 and not experienced this problem.

One thing you could check is try changing you snap settings and see if that makes any difference.

 

A little trick regarding BimObjects, they do tend to be over modelled, just like in your example of the server unit case, most people who download only want  to see the external shape and do not care to much about what's inside however some people just like modelling and we end up with Bimobjects that come in really bloated. Add onto that they come in as mesh objects.

Here is the trick... download your BimObjhect into a blank file, select the object and ... convert to "MESH"... then with it selected convert to "Generic Solid" and see what you get 😀

 

 

Thanks. Snap settings don't seem to change things.

Do your models have architectural objects like walls, slabs, windows etc? Because I have a feeling that the problem may be worse when these kinds of objects are present.

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Yes, walls, slabs... and all normal architectural elements.

Always have problems when mesh objects are present in the file, thus try and convert to generic solids if possible.

I normally have two models open when doing any serious modelling, one where i will model the elements, then when happy will copy and past in place in the clean file and convert to solid, if need to change i go back into the other model and make adjustments and then copy into the other model.

 

I have found that if I'm having problems just selecting objects and Cut, then past in place back into the file sorts some things out.

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34 minutes ago, line-weight said:

What do you mean by 'cutter' tool?

 

Here is the same model, viewed in orthogonal rather than perspective mode. I would say the PP tool appears to behave a bit better?

 

The Tool with the Paper Knife Icon.

It thought it is called "Cutter (Knife)" worldwide ?

 

Or is it like german's "handy" = cell phone .....

 

When looking at your Video in Orthogonal Mode,

for me that looks like PPT is working as it should !

 

I just thought about "orthogonal", as for me it looks like OpenGL is needed

for Snaps, Highlighting, Selection, .... and does something wrong with

PPT Face Selection here. And maybe it is also worth to try Wireframe Mode.

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Posted (edited)

Here I have a model with walls, slabs, windows and no issue in perspective mode.

I use same technique to model out elements in a second file using copy + paste in place as well. That works quicker 👍

Edited by C.T

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Posted (edited)

 @line-weight 

 

Repeatable.

 

But once I moved around, I could no longer get it to repeat.

 

EDIT to say I could not navigate back to get it to repeat.

If I used your saved view it was then repeatable - even after I pushed the geometry around a bit.

 

 

 

Edited by hollister design Studio
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hollister design Studio said:

 @line-weight 

 

Repeatable.

 

But once I moved around, I could no longer get it to repeat.

 

EDIT to say I could not navigate back to get it to repeat.

If I used your saved view it was then repeatable - even after I pushed the geometry around a bit.

 

 

 

Thanks. And you're on 2021 on a PC, is that right?

I commonly find with this problem, that changing the viewpoint will make something work.

In the case of that file, if I move around I can stop it happening. But I am able to then find some viewpoints where it repeats.

Edited by line-weight

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

That's very interesting - I've just tried this and it definitely makes a difference.

 

Unfortunately, having classes set to "show others" is not a feasible workaround because any model is going to include objects in a number of classes, so you'd need to be constantly changing the active class.

 

You are right that's not a solution (just I noticed).

I do use 'hide selected' in interior models to reach behind certain objects, which I find very useful.

663451481_hideselected.thumb.png.2e01f137e70111675904e655f294e7d3.png

Edited by C.T

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@C.T are you using a local version of VW or the international version? This isn't a standard command no?

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@Tom W. this is not standard but has nothing to do with local/ international version.

 

You can program this in Tools> Workspaces> 'Edit current workspace'

To find out how: Go to second page of Threat 'Isolate Object Command' (October 25, 2020).

 

Hope you like it.

 

 

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On 3/12/2021 at 8:36 PM, line-weight said:

I have isolated two walls into a single file. The file is attached. There's one saved view which should replicate what you see in the screen recording below.

 

I'd be interested if anyone could replicate the troublesome behavior of the push-pull tool you can see here:

 

 

PPT.vwx 74.43 kB · 5 downloads

 

Can I bump this to ask if anyone else can replicate the above?

 

(Thanks @hollister design Studio for already doing so)

 

Is anyone from Vectorworks looking at this thread?

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More testing.

- It's the same in wireframe or OpenGL

- I get exactly the same behaviour with the "extract face" tool.

- The wall objects had negative height. I changed that to positive. I didn't change the viewpoint. Similar happens as before, but when the "wrong" wall highlights, it's not actually related to hovering over the other wall object; it happens if I hover over the same portion of the screen which now has no objects in sight. The face is somehow being erroneously highlighted in response to the cursor being somewhere else altogether. I suspect this might be over-riding the correct face being highlighted, in certain situations.

 

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