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VW 2018 (and VW2021 and VW2022): Push-pull tool problems continue


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This is a continuation of an issue that I was already having in 2017. Mentioned in a couple of threads by me and others previously without much response.

 

Essentially: the push pull tool (a) struggles to select faces, (b) fails completely to select faces, or (c) causes a freeze with spinning beachball when there are moderately complex objects in the drawing.

 

As far as I can work out, it happens as soon as one of those objects is behind whatever face you are trying to select.

 

This has been a big problem in a drawing where I had a few imported symbols (from BIMobject and elsewhere). It became impossible to use the push-pull tool to edit simple objects in the drawings, unless I hid all of those complex objects. To make sure this isn't a problem specific to that drawing file, I've created a new and fairly simple one in VW2018. If anyone would like to see if they can replicate this, here is what I did:

- new blank file.

- go to BIMobject download. I downloaded fairly much at random a server unit casing, in SKP format. If you type "sr25ub" into the BIMobject search bar you should find it.

- I placed two of these units next to each other

- then I drew a simple extruded rectangle, sitting next to them. See screenshots below.

- one of the screenshots has a viewpoint with the extruded block to the left. using this viewpoint, the push-pull tool will select any face on the white block easily and correctly, and function as expected.

- however - the other screenshot has a viewpoint with the server units hiding behind the white block. using this viewpoint, the push pull tool struggles to select the face of the white block at all, and I get freezes and spinning beachballs.

 

This doesn't seem like an overly complex drawing. My machine specs are posted down below. It's a refurbed/upgraded mac pro.

 

I've attached the drawing file too.

 

59bd3d78d32a4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_02_53.jpg.e9043ca56dc3ed4919e344efdbcd1f02.jpg59bd3d798fe99_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_03_19.jpg.437b1738a6ed59d21ddb58013a3dfaa1.jpg

 

59bd3edcc19d4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_08_49.jpg.e5d138baa2d8aeba883def3c0d5275d5.jpg

pptest.vwx

Edited by line-weight
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53 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

@line-weight,

I can reproduce the problem with your "PPT.vwx" file and do see a few tools affected.  I added (to bug VB-175964) your file along with a video showing the problem with a handful of tools.

 

Thank you for bringing this to my attention!

 

Thank you for this.

 

Back in September 2017 (as can be seen on the first page of this thread) JimW reported a bug for what I think is essentially the same, or a related problem.

 

That was recorded as VB-145786. Is there any record of what happened to that, in the intervening 3.5 years?

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

NOTE:  The 3D face picking issue is not related to the picking of invisible geometry.  I split this issue off into a separate bug (VB-177561).

 

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

Back in September 2017 (as can be seen on the first page of this thread) JimW reported a bug for what I think is essentially the same, or a related problem.

That was recorded as VB-145786. Is there any record of what happened to that, in the intervening 3.5 years?

 

That bug number had to do with the BIM Object and was resolved as working as designed.  The push/pull issue related to it, I believe, was reported as a separate bug.  I do not know the bug number for that and don't see anything after doing a quick search.

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4 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

NOTE:  The 3D face picking issue is not related to the picking of invisible geometry.  I split this issue off into a separate bug (VB-177561).

 

Ok - thanks for the explanation.

 

4 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

That bug number had to do with the BIM Object and was resolved as working as designed.  The push/pull issue related to it, I believe, was reported as a separate bug.  I do not know the bug number for that and don't see anything after doing a quick search.

 

I'm not sure I understand what "resolved as working as designed" means - does that mean that it was decided it wasn't a bug after all?

 

I just tried downloading the file that I attached to the very first post in this thread. I can replicate exactly what I report in that post - face selection from certain viewpoints becomes unreliable and provokes freezes and spinning beachballs. This is three releases of Vectorworks later, in VW2021 SP3 and on a brand new mac. To me this seems to suggest that nothing has been done about trying to fix these issues in all this time.

 

Not intended as a criticism of you @Matt Panzer and I appreciate your feedback on this - but this kind of thing is why I now so often feel like submitting bugs is just a waste of my time.

 

 

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Working As Designed (WAD) is a software term meaning that the performance is not considered a bug. It means that based on the documentation submitted to the programer (from whoever wrote the specification) the code does what the specification called for.

 

It does not mean that the specification was not wrong, or that the person(s) who wrote the specification fully understood the need. It is completely (often) possible to have a tool/object that is completely WAD, but that is not suitable for "your" (or even anyones) needs.

 

If you ever get back a notification that something is WAD but you don't like what it does, the next step is to create a wish list item and fully explain what you need the tool/object to do and how and why the existing implementation does not work.

 

And be careful what you wish for.  I am relatively certain that the third mode of the rectangle tool (midpoint to corner) was based on a wish I submitted. But I find it almost useless because the specification I provided originally was incomplete. But often it is impossible to see that until you have a mock up to test on.

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29 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Still a bit of a mystery to me, what exactly was submitted as VB-145786, and what was deemed to be working as designed!


I believe the WAD part is due to the geometry that BIM Object system provides.  This is geometry that VW essentially imports,  not creates.  I don’t know the specifics, but I believe that is why the VB is WAD.  However, the push/pull issues was moved to a separate bug.

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Here is what we are told VW2022 is going to be like:

 

1479025777_Screenshot2021-09-07at11_13_02.jpg.a4644a3c4b7f5e0c3d01e8957c33623b.jpg

 

So it sounds like all the problems with the push-pull tool must have been ironed out.

 

I look forward to being able to use the push-pull tool in a fast and intuitive way. For me, intuitively means that the tool performs its primary function entirely reliably and as expected.

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6 hours ago, line-weight said:

Here is what we are told VW2022 is going to be like:

 

1479025777_Screenshot2021-09-07at11_13_02.jpg.a4644a3c4b7f5e0c3d01e8957c33623b.jpg

 

So it sounds like all the problems with the push-pull tool must have been ironed out.

 

I look forward to being able to use the push-pull tool in a fast and intuitive way. For me, intuitively means that the tool performs its primary function entirely reliably and as expected.

 

I see you're on the M1, also. I find the 2021 push/pull very unreliable and even crashes my Mac. 

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On 3/12/2021 at 8:36 PM, line-weight said:

I have isolated two walls into a single file. The file is attached. There's one saved view which should replicate what you see in the screen recording below.

 

I'd be interested if anyone could replicate the troublesome behavior of the push-pull tool you can see here:

 

 

PPT.vwx 74.43 kB · 9 downloads

 

Having just tested this, it seems not to be fixed in VW2022 as I can replicate it exactly.

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On 9/16/2017 at 4:11 PM, line-weight said:

This is a continuation of an issue that I was already having in 2017. Mentioned in a couple of threads by me and others previously without much response.

 

Essentially: the push pull tool (a) struggles to select faces, (b) fails completely to select faces, or (c) causes a freeze with spinning beachball when there are moderately complex objects in the drawing.

 

As far as I can work out, it happens as soon as one of those objects is behind whatever face you are trying to select.

 

This has been a big problem in a drawing where I had a few imported symbols (from BIMobject and elsewhere). It became impossible to use the push-pull tool to edit simple objects in the drawings, unless I hid all of those complex objects. To make sure this isn't a problem specific to that drawing file, I've created a new and fairly simple one in VW2018. If anyone would like to see if they can replicate this, here is what I did:

- new blank file.

- go to BIMobject download. I downloaded fairly much at random a server unit casing, in SKP format. If you type "sr25ub" into the BIMobject search bar you should find it.

- I placed two of these units next to each other

- then I drew a simple extruded rectangle, sitting next to them. See screenshots below.

- one of the screenshots has a viewpoint with the extruded block to the left. using this viewpoint, the push-pull tool will select any face on the white block easily and correctly, and function as expected.

- however - the other screenshot has a viewpoint with the server units hiding behind the white block. using this viewpoint, the push pull tool struggles to select the face of the white block at all, and I get freezes and spinning beachballs.

 

This doesn't seem like an overly complex drawing. My machine specs are posted down below. It's a refurbed/upgraded mac pro.

 

I've attached the drawing file too.

 

59bd3d78d32a4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_02_53.jpg.e9043ca56dc3ed4919e344efdbcd1f02.jpg59bd3d798fe99_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_03_19.jpg.437b1738a6ed59d21ddb58013a3dfaa1.jpg

 

59bd3edcc19d4_ScreenShot2017-09-16at16_08_49.jpg.e5d138baa2d8aeba883def3c0d5275d5.jpg

pptest.vwx

 

I can also replicate this problem (posted in 2017) in VW2022. So, again, not fixed.

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Feels like I'm shouting into the void on this thread but here is an example of why this issue is so infuriating. Very very simple geometry here. All I want to do is resize each of the boards. It should be a simple and quick operation with the push-pull tool. But it isn't, because it fails to find faces even in this simple geometry and I have to select every single object individually with the pointer tool before using the push-pull tool on them. This doubles the number of clicks and means I have to move back and forth to the too pallette repeatedly when I shouldn't have to.

 

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
11 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Feels like I'm shouting into the void on this thread but here is an example of why this issue is so infuriating. Very very simple geometry here. All I want to do is resize each of the boards. It should be a simple and quick operation with the push-pull tool. But it isn't, because it fails to find faces even in this simple geometry and I have to select every single object individually with the pointer tool before using the push-pull tool on them. This doubles the number of clicks and means I have to move back and forth to the too pallette repeatedly when I shouldn't have to.

 

 

Screen Recording 2021-12-01 at 14.34.13.mov 52.15 MB · 1 download

 

 

Thanks for letting us know this issue.  We are following the issues VB-177561, VB-128360, VB-175964 and all these are related to not only push/pull it affects all face picking tools, its core level face picking issue.

 

Could you please attach the VW file which used in your movie,  I will look into it.

 

Thanks,

Senthil Prabu

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2 hours ago, Senthil Prabu said:

 

Thanks for letting us know this issue.  We are following the issues VB-177561, VB-128360, VB-175964 and all these are related to not only push/pull it affects all face picking tools, its core level face picking issue.

 

Could you please attach the VW file which used in your movie,  I will look into it.

 

Thanks,

Senthil Prabu

 

I can't post the file here publicly but I can send you a copy by DM if you want? I can't guarantee that you will be able to reproduce the exact same conditions because I have worked on it since I recorded the video.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
23 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I can't post the file here publicly but I can send you a copy by DM if you want? I can't guarantee that you will be able to reproduce the exact same conditions because I have worked on it since I recorded the video.

 

Yes please, send to me by DM

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I have been away from the computer for a few months so I decided to brush up and take the VW certification course.  I recommend especially to nubs and novices.   I get to the 3d Modeling section and am told that I can simply hold down the alt key and subtract one shape from another.  I set my working plane to the desired surface of my solid subtraction created my extrude to be subtracted.  No matter what I did I could not get it to subtract.  Finally I went to subtract solids in the modeling tab and did it that way.  It appears that even though my working plane was set when I added shapes to shapes they were all over the place on the z axis although my snaps were all on.  Even once my surfaces were all aligned it was still an issue.  I suspect user error so for instructional purposes it should be mentioned that the push pull needs to be handled precisely and should give the work around.  If VW believes it works as advertised the presenter must be very detailed into all the nuance when presenting the tool.  I have a feeling I had one setting off and it threw the whole thing which I spent a ton of time figuring out.  Judging from the length of this string its an issue that need addressing.   Pardon the redundancies. 

Edited by Landartma
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Landartma, the subtlety with this operation is that once you have drawn the 2D object on the object face you have to start the Push Pull operation while the 2D object is 'red' hilighted and then press the Windows Alt key or Mac Option key.  If you press that before you start Pushing or Pulling it won't work.

If you pull the 2D shape away from the object you will get a solid addition.

If you push the 2D shape into the object you will get a solid subtraction.

 

I find it best to have the auto selection plane on.

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