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Site Model and Multi Pane Crashing


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Looks like we are all being played for beta testers - again - with this new release.  Over the course of just a few hours I've run in to so many problems that our office will be going back to 2017.  I don't think, for the price we are paying for this software, that we should have to serve as beta testers.  This product is not ready for public release.  Only as recently as several months ago has 2017 had most of its bugs resolved.  I suppose it will take another 9 months for this one as well.  Save yourselves and don't bother with it.  There are great ideas in 2018 that just aren't ready for public release yet.

 

Some problems we've had -

Terrain models have problems updating and crash every machine.  They had to be re-built from scratch to work in 2018

Roof styles randomly showing transparent when in 2017 they are solid

Roof style components not clipping properly to interior wall surfaces

Multi-pane mode crashes

 

this is just in 24 hours of use.

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sorry you had a bad 24hrs...i have not used the DTM yet

 

this is were a browser based version would be good...there would be no reason to release everything in one big event...just letting things mature and sending out improvements every 3 weeks over the year would just be better over all...i already have a subscription so you don't need to sell me the idea that i need VW...

 

and if the browser idea is not good for people who may have bad internet then you could still have small downloads during the year when things are ready...

 

you could still have a big event for trying to get new people to buy VW and just have it focus on the great items that were released the past year.

 

but back to the browser idea...the first question is what type of hardware are people running? is that the problem?  all that mess gets eliminate freeing up software engineers to focus 100% on the program

 

 

 

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Hmm, totally opposite experience here. Played with v2018  over a couple of hours, maybe 6-7 in total.

We have a current project that is an residential Apartment consisting 6 storeys, across 3 towers (sort of), 2 level carparks and a retail level. 

No noticeable hiccups/crashes yet. The multi view is working flawlessly with this test. Havent checked out stairs yet but thats one gripe our whole office has with VW.

 

As noted by Peter above it would pay to have your machine specs in your signature or something, so others can at least now where you are with hardware/OS, etc.

 

As with what @digitalcarbonmentioned above. Wouldn't browser based version come with its own hardware/software compatibility issues. The obvious one being no internet connection?

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I can elaborate and  I will do so as I find problems however - again this is taking up a lot of time already.  

First Our hardware

iMac retina 5K 27inch late 2014

3.5GHz Intel Core i5 (4 cores)

16GB 1600 MHz DDR3

AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB

1TB FUSION DRIVE

Mac Pro (early 2009)

2 x 3.33 Ghz 6-core Intel Xeon

64 GB 1333 Mhz DDR3 ECC

NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan 12288 MB

255 GB SSD, 2TB SATA

Mac Pro,  (Early 2008)

Serial, G88431HZXYL

2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon

32 GB 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM

Graphics: ATI radeon HD 5770 1024MB

120GB Solid State SATA Drive

Macbook Pro

15.4” 2880 x 1800

2.6 Ghz Intel Core i7

8GB 1600 Mhz DDR3

500GB SSD

NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB

 

Though there are too many issues to mention I will list the latest - it has to do with the new Title Block Manager

1.  When updating existing title blocks there are of course issues with layout - so you have to make them 'unstyled' to edit the layout. When you try and save this new style as a resource it does not save it as the name you type in the dailog. You then ahve to search for it randomly because you don't know what VWOrks saved it as.

2.  Once this is done if you want to use this style in another drawing by importing it - the changes you made to it do not reflect in the new file so you have to go through the same exercise again.

With Roofs styles in an existing architectural model...

1.  A component of the 2017 roof style (sheathing that was bound to the inside face of bound walls) no longer bounds to the wall but the outside edge of the roof.  No amount of changing the settings to the correct binding changes this. 

2.  A component of the same style listed above (roof shingles with texture) now shows as transparent with no effect on light hitting the model - as if the floor is open to the sky.  Again no amount of configuraqtion changes to the texture, roof style, layer, class settings etc changed it.  The same occurs on all files using this roof style when updated to 2018.

 

There are more though i have work to do....

 

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Wow, doesnt look too good.

 

1. Havent tried title blocks

2. Roof style conversion from 2016 works. 2017 have not tried yet.

3. All roof component classes converted from 2016 work as expected.

3. Confirming upon file conversion all is well, once you edit a class associated with a roof component. All hell breaks loose. Component end mitres change from vertical to horizontal, thickness of component drops to zero, texure gets deleted from component.

 

Haven't converted from 2017 as majority of our current projects are being done in 2016. Been really busy in the southern hemisphere this year. Too busy to even upgrade a version! So it looks like we'll be taking the leap to 2018

Edited by twk
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15 hours ago, lgoodkind said:

I can elaborate and  I will do so as I find problems however - again this is taking up a lot of time already.  

First Our hardware

iMac retina 5K 27inch late 2014

3.5GHz Intel Core i5 (4 cores)

16GB 1600 MHz DDR3

AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB

1TB FUSION DRIVE

Mac Pro (early 2009)

2 x 3.33 Ghz 6-core Intel Xeon

64 GB 1333 Mhz DDR3 ECC

NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan 12288 MB

255 GB SSD, 2TB SATA

Mac Pro,  (Early 2008)

Serial, G88431HZXYL

2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon

32 GB 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM

Graphics: ATI radeon HD 5770 1024MB

120GB Solid State SATA Drive

Macbook Pro

15.4” 2880 x 1800

2.6 Ghz Intel Core i7

8GB 1600 Mhz DDR3

500GB SSD

NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB

 

 

 

 

Hello lgoodkind  (sorry I don't know your name),

 

I might well be wrong and please forgive me if I am, but it appears your youngest machine is 3 years old and your oldest is almost 9 years old.

The iMac retina 5K 27inch late 2014 is a good one and you shouldn't be having too many issues with that. I'd be interested if you can replicate all the problems you are observing on that particular machine.

All the other machines are well below par for running Vectorworks 2018.

 

Go to this page: http://www.vectorworks.net/sysreq to see the system requirements for 2018. Note that there are several 'levels' from minimum to recommended to best in terms of multi views and so on. Anything below 2GB of VRAM isn't going to be able to handle DTM's etc very well. Ok for straight drafting and so on but not for higher level work. I'd say that's almost certainly the crux of the matter.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mike m oz said:

Best practice with all BIM programs is to keep projects that have been started in a version in that version.  ie not to convert them.

 

Really?

 

I have projects that are still active that I started working on 3 or 4 years ago. Apart from anything else, older versions of software gradually become incompatible with and/or unsupported for newer OS versions that are necessary to run the latest VW versions.

 

I think we ought to be able to expect we can move projects to new versions of VW without things breaking. If that's not possible then I'm not quite sure what I'm really paying for.

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Same here,

but taking the risks of migrating current projects ist just a personal joy.

You can't do that if you have larger responsibility.

You should not do this in general.

 

Larger offices are years behind in OS and Software. IT does extensive testing

until even new projects will start in a newer software version.

 

So I will update immediately to High Sierra on Sept 25 and convert my current

project to VW 2018.

The silliest thing you can do.

 

But very exciting :)

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19 hours ago, lgoodkind said:

First Our hardware

Macbook Pro

15.4” 2880 x 1800

2.6 Ghz Intel Core i7

8GB 1600 Mhz DDR3

500GB SSD

NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB

 

On your older hardware, make sure that you set the Navigation Graphics dropdown in Vectorworks>Preferences>Display to Best Compatibility. I am running a comparable MacBook Pro and its running better than I expected even set to Best Performance. I assumed I would need to upgrade my hardware to use Multiple View Panes but its been ok so far. Are your machines connected to larger, external displays or multiple displays? This can also impact your GPU's ability to keep up.

  

19 hours ago, lgoodkind said:

Though there are too many issues to mention I will list the latest - it has to do with the new Title Block Manager

1.  When updating existing title blocks there are of course issues with layout - so you have to make them 'unstyled' to edit the layout. When you try and save this new style as a resource it does not save it as the name you type in the dailog. You then ahve to search for it randomly because you don't know what VWOrks saved it as.

2.  Once this is done if you want to use this style in another drawing by importing it - the changes you made to it do not reflect in the new file so you have to go through the same exercise again.

With Roofs styles in an existing architectural model...

1.  A component of the 2017 roof style (sheathing that was bound to the inside face of bound walls) no longer bounds to the wall but the outside edge of the roof.  No amount of changing the settings to the correct binding changes this. 

2.  A component of the same style listed above (roof shingles with texture) now shows as transparent with no effect on light hitting the model - as if the floor is open to the sky.  Again no amount of configuraqtion changes to the texture, roof style, layer, class settings etc changed it.  The same occurs on all files using this roof style when updated to 2018.

 

There are more though i have work to do....

 

 

I have encountered a few bugs and some weird new workflows (the Title Block Manager being one) but overall VW2018 has been quite stable. There will always be things caught by users after a new release since NV can't possibly test everyone's workflow without an open beta process.

 

I will likely upgrade my projects and begin working with VW2018 just as I have with new versions in past years. But I am a one man shop so I'm assuming all the risk myself. I would think that larger companies would want to wait for at least SP1 but I can't imagine trying to keep a project within one version for the life of the project.

 

I would recommend Bug Submitting any issues you find. Its the only way to make sure things get fixed. Often a bug is isolated to a small group of users and if no one submits it, it can go unchecked for a long time.

 

Kevin

 

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17 hours ago, Peter Neufeld said:

All the other machines are well below par for running Vectorworks 2018

 

Peter - I think you may not have read the full specs.   Are you saying a 12 core intel xeon 3.33GHz mac pro with a 12GB Titan video card and 64GB of RAM is well below par? On top of spending $$$ for 3 licenses and service select I'm supposed to spend another $$$$$$$$ on new hardware every 3-5 years?  I've been sold on service select thinking it might save money in the long run but if the processors are only supported for 3-5 years and the software doesn't support older hardware what's the point of owning it?  Now I wish I'd stayed with 2017 for the next 5 years.  I've switched to 'best compatibility'  mode and back and don't think this makes a difference with the tools I'm having issues with. I think however the problems are not hardware related at all.  When we upgraded to 2017 I worked with tech support to solve issues with the new Irrigation module that were corrected in subsequent service packs.  I guess I've reached a level of frustration due to the amount of $$ spent on this software and time needed to work with them to improve it that I don't want to anymore.  Sorry to all if I offend with my venting.

 

The issue with DTM's occurs on both the new iMac and older Mac Pro with the Titan video card and 64RAM.

Currently I am trying to solve the problem with roof components/styles in 2018 and just can't get the tool to work properly either with imported styles or the default.

 

 

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Hello lgoodkind  (sorry I don't know your name),

 

No problem ranting - software 'first' releases can do that to anyone. I'm certainly no computer technician but I agree, on paper, that Vectorworks 2018 in principal should be working well on that machine but then again the technology that was expensively and spankingly fast 8 years ago might not be relevant to how the program works most efficiently now. Is this issue related to the one file or all DTM's? (forgetting roof styles etc). As Kevin notes, report it as a bug and get it to Vectorworks, Inc. Also it's not a question of 'not supporting' processors either. Vectorworks can run on a lot of machines depending on a) the operating system and b) the chips, but that does then equal the performance enjoyed.

 

You are right though that (in my opinion) I am saying that users should update their hardware frequently.  Every 3-5 years is about right. If you spend more upfront on the hardware then it might last 4-5 years. Otherwise change every 3 is my advice to most people. As we all push and expect more from our software and hardware, it's easy to forget to keep both up to date. Yes it costs money. BTW Vectorworks Service Select is undoubtedly the most cost effective way to maintain the program, plus all the other benefits. 

 

The other thing I have to ask is do you update the Apple operating System with the very first release or do you wait until the first .1 or .2 update? As you attest the same might be true for new Vectorworks releases too, but it's never a simple answer.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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For me Site Model Editing can crash or freeze without using multiple panes.

(No RAM explosions in such cases so far but 8 GB usage for a fairly simple Model in general)

 

But there may be some inconsistencies with new multiple panes,

even when used only one, and the new contour editing View.

As I often lose my 2D Top Plane View or even Selections when I use my Enterprise Navigator

to zoom/pan (2D Mode) or even by my pen. It will start to rotate the view and jump its position.

 

And every time I set back to Top Plan, view jumps to any arbitrary position.

So I need to largely zoom/pan which makes me lose the 2D view again ....

 

That all does not happen for me in VW 2017 Source Data Edit Mode.

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I think my VW2018 honeymoon period may be over...

 

A sudden crash (application quit completely) meant I had to recover a drawing from the auto backup file. That was fine except that on opening it, my "floating pane" which I'd had on my second monitor seemed to appear on my main monitor, obscuring the right hand side of the screen. Because I could only see a portion of it (part of the left hand edge) I could find no way to close it or move it (nothing to grab onto).

After a bit of messing around, saving/quitting/reopening the drawing, it opened with the pane obscuring the right hand side of the monitor, but this time fortuitously with the blue pane title button visible, which meant I could right-click on that and choose to close it (this process generated some weirdness too - selecting "close floating pane" seemed just to cause it to multiply itself but selecting "close active view pane" turned it into a floating pane with all edges visible, which I could then close by clicking on its 'X' in the corner).

 

Be careful out there! If I'd not managed to get rid of the freak pane, I wouldn't have been able to continue work on the drawing.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
45 minutes ago, line-weight said:

A sudden crash (application quit completely) meant I had to recover a drawing from the auto backup file. That was fine except that on opening it, my "floating pane" which I'd had on my second monitor seemed to appear on my main monitor, obscuring the right hand side of the screen. Because I could only see a portion of it (part of the left hand edge) I could find no way to close it or move it (nothing to grab onto).

After a bit of messing around, saving/quitting/reopening the drawing, it opened with the pane obscuring the right hand side of the monitor, but this time fortuitously with the blue pane title button visible, which meant I could right-click on that and choose to close it (this process generated some weirdness too - selecting "close floating pane" seemed just to cause it to multiply itself but selecting "close active view pane" turned it into a floating pane with all edges visible, which I could then close by clicking on its 'X' in the corner).

 

 

I'm sorry the crash caused a mess for you.

 

There are some OS level limitations that we need to work around for the floating pane being too large problem in your case.

In this case, if you are on windows, you can use the OS level hot key -- Windows + left/right/up/down, to move the pane.

If you are on mac, you should be able to grab the edge of the floating pane to move the pane and resize it.

 

In addition, I think there is no "Close Floating View Pane" command, but there is a "Create Floating View Pane" command. It basically will duplicate the current active pane, including a floating pane, to another floating pane.

 

 

Edited by Chih-Pin
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1 hour ago, Chih-Pin said:

 

I'm sorry the crash caused a mess for you.

 

There are some OS level limitations that we need to work around for the floating pane being too large problem in your case.

In this case, if you are on windows, you can use the OS level hot key -- Windows + left/right/up/down, to move the pane.

If you are on mac, you should be able to grab the edge of the floating pane to move the pane and resize it.

 

In addition, I think there is no "Close Floating View Pane" command, but there is a "Create Floating View Pane" command. It basically will duplicate the current active pane, including a floating pane, to another floating pane.

 

 

 

I'm on mac.

On this occasion I was not able to grab the edge of the floating pane to move it, because to do that you need to grab the top bar. Resizing it in order to be able to grab that top bar wasn't possible because both top and bottom were off screen. This is why I also couldn't access the button that highlights in blue, with the pane view type indicated on it.

 

It was only after closing/opening a couple of times that the errant pane appeared in a different location that allowed me to access the blue button (but still not the top bar).

 

You're completely right about there being no "close floating view pane" command. It's "create" so the behaviour I saw as far as that is concerned was as expected. My mistake.

 

As an aside, relating to multiple view panes. When I first tried them, I watched the relevant getting started guide, which told me that I should enable them from the "view" menu. However, for me, the command exists in a menu called "New", which I worked out after a bit of confusion.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
2 minutes ago, line-weight said:

On this occasion I was not able to grab the edge of the floating pane to move it, because to do that you need to grab the top bar. Resizing it in order to be able to grab that top bar wasn't possible because both top and bottom were off screen. This is why I also couldn't access the button that highlights in blue, with the pane view type indicated on it.

Which version of MAC do you have?

If you are able to grab any edges, you should be able to move the pane by dragging the edge without resizing it. For instance, if you grab a vertical edge, you should be able to drag it horizontally to move the pane, and vice versa. This OS level trick should work for all the applications windows on Mac, at least Sierra and high Sierra. But I don't remember whether it supports older versions of Mac OS X.

 

Let me know if it's still not working for you. :-)

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Chih-Pin said:

Just for the record.. I attached a video that demonstrates the "drag an edge to move window" behavior.

 

There are also some discussions here that may help:

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/71112/how-do-i-move-a-window-whose-title-bar-is-off-screen

 

DragWindow.mov

Thanks.

Ok, so now I get it. Even though the cursor changes to the resize icon, holding it down and moving in the perpendicular direction will drag the window. Learnt something new about OSX, as I never realised this before!

 

So the issue with the messed up pane position on drawing recovery is not as bad as I thought.

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9 hours ago, line-weight said:

As an aside, relating to multiple view panes. When I first tried them, I watched the relevant getting started guide, which told me that I should enable them from the "view" menu. However, for me, the command exists in a menu called "New", which I worked out after a bit of confusion.

 

Hello,

This means that you have used the default option when upgrading to 2017 and the Migration Manager has, by default, migrated your old workspace from 2016 (presumably) to 2017.

 

IMO this migration of workspaces should be off by default and users who radically customise their workspaces would be aware of this and turn it on if need be. However for most users who might only change one or two things, if any, this is a real trap. 

 

It means any new commands are 'orphaned' and end up in a waste ground area - the 'New' sub menu. I have no idea where the new tools end up probably, no where. It is always best to try and rebuild a workspace if you have to, so that you can start afresh and use the new version's workspace it was designed for. 

 

You'll need to go to your Vectorworks user account>Workspaces and move out (or rename) the old carried over workspace. Upon relaunch you should see the current one from the application folder alongside yours if you renamed it or not if removed obviously but the 'correct/current' be will be loaded from the application folder.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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