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VW 2018 - Site Model changes

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First @JimWand others, thanks for the updated Site Design DTM videos, great as always.

Help a lot for remembering the Modifier System, their differences and how to use them.

 

But I still don't quite understand the DTM changes for VW 2018.

 

1.

There was mentioned a kind new Meshing,

are there any changes in the way the Mesh is created ?

 

Until now it was that the Meshing Algorithm did not care about the Line Segments

of Contour Sources but used their Vertices only like they would be only 3D points.

Means, that in a hilly terrain, if there is a long Segment of a Polyline,

a user would expect the Mesh created would also have a nice long horizontal Edge there.

Which was very likely not the case, as there might have been Vertices more near from

neighboring contours, in a perpendicular direction to the expected Edge, that got preferred

when creating Edges in the resulting Mesh and creating a complete different terrain character.

Did this change with the VW 2018 changes ?

 

I see no differences in my DTMs. Even if there may be, as I have my contours optimized for the old

Algorithm by adding extra points to control DTM's Edges creation.

If there are, I would update my DTM workflow.

 

 

2.

What are the benefits of the new Contour Editing Method over the current Source Editing ?

 

Before it was quite similar and easy to edit existing Contours.

Go to edit mode and manipulate the Vertices of a single Contour with the special edit tool.

It was not good for my optimization purposes where I need to see also Vertices of the neighbored

Contours. In this case, selecting more than one Contour, it switched to standard Modify Tool,

which was not able to keep Z Heights when manipulating Vertices.

 

Are there any Changes in the new contour Editing Mode to better keep or lock Z values ?

 

 

3.

I don't fully understand the difference and way existing vs proposed contours will work.

I was also a bit frightened by the warning message.

 

I think previously you had your existing contours and could add new contours for proposed

like additions that will modulate the terrain but could not "overwrite" existing Vertices.

Does the new System use the same existing Contours for the proposed Countours that will just

save another state of the contours ?

(I think that would be good)

a) Meaning that an "overwriting" of existing points, that disturb the purposed design, is now possible ?

b) will this work with 3D Points/Stakes data too ?

 

 

4.

Under Direct Contour Editing,

my imagination was that I can see the DTM's resulting Mesh in 3D and at the same time could

select the Stakes or Polylines's vertices to manipulate live,

while the DTM Mesh will only update the effected regions in a faster way.

 

That isn't the purpose, right ?

 

 

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1) I do not know the details of the underlying tech that generates the mesh.

 

2) The Edit Contour mode is much cleaner if you have a significantly larger number of actual contours than you're displaying in major/minor, I had no issues with Z heights when editing them but I didn't heavily work with editing them in the previous edit source.


3) Are you doing cut/fill calculations or just using the Site Model as a visual representation?

4) I may not understand the phrasing of this question, apologies. The direct contour editing lets you edit the contours, regardless of the 3D appearance mode.

(Side note: Edited the title of this post so that readers will know we are discussing the Site Model object)

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Thanks Jim !

(expected you to be on holidays before the gig)

 

 

2 hours ago, JimW said:

1) I do not know the details of the underlying tech that generates the mesh.

 

But maybe information if there were any changes or not ?

If not I need to create a test scenario to find out.

 

 

2 hours ago, JimW said:

2) The Edit Contour mode is much cleaner if you have a significantly larger number of actual contours than you're displaying in major/minor,

 

It's currently hard to try to imagine that.

Have to try that on a copy and get used to it and what it actually does different.

 

 

2 hours ago, JimW said:

3) Are you doing cut/fill calculations or just using the Site Model as a visual representation?

 

Visualization primarily of course.

So far I had no chance to care about cut and fill but would like to do it right in the future.

 

 

2 hours ago, JimW said:

4) I may not understand the phrasing of this question, apologies. The direct contour editing lets you edit the contours, regardless of the 3D appearance mode.

 

Difficult, I already gave my best (english) ;)

 

Until today I had to work a bit in the dark when editing contours.

When I see a problem in the DTM Mesh,

I go back to Edit Mode, try to find the Vertices or Points that could be responsible and need

manipulation or need additional Geometry. Do the changes, update the DTM so that

I can see if I was successful or made it even worse.

And so on.

So I thought it would be nice to be able to see the 3D Mesh, activate 3D Modify Tool and grab

some points directly - which did not work of course.

 

I was a bit careful as I did not want to destroy my DTM but so far I did not see such a possibility

by the new tool. But that doesn't necessarily mean the there isn't any or something similar.

Maybe I need another video, when you have time again.

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On 14.9.2017 at 2:13 PM, zoomer said:

1.

There was mentioned a kind new Meshing,

are there any changes in the way the Mesh is created ?

 

No.

 

 

On 14.9.2017 at 2:13 PM, zoomer said:

1.

Until now it was that the Meshing Algorithm did not care about the Line Segments

of Contour Sources but used their Vertices only like they would be only 3D points.

Means, that in a hilly terrain, if there is a long Segment of a Polyline,

a user would expect the Mesh created would also have a nice long horizontal Edge there.

Which was very likely not the case, as there might have been Vertices more near from

neighboring contours, in a perpendicular direction to the expected Edge, that got preferred

when creating Edges in the resulting Mesh and creating a complete different terrain character.

 

 

I am totally proud to officially announce that I was completely wrong on this one.

 

The Meshing tries really hard to keep each Contour Segment as an Edge in Mesh.

That is very important to know.
So Contours have an advantage over separate 3D points there, they will lead the Mesh.

 

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On 14.9.2017 at 2:13 PM, zoomer said:

3.

I don't fully understand the difference and way existing vs proposed contours will work.

 

Does the new System use the same existing Contours for the proposed Countours that will just

save another state of the contours ?

(I think that would be good)

 

 

On 14.9.2017 at 2:21 PM, JimW said:

3) Are you doing cut/fill calculations or just using the Site Model as a visual representation?

 

May I ask why you asked ?

 

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Just now, zoomer said:

May I ask why you asked ?


Generally, if you don't care about the cut and fill calculations and just needed the site model to look a single way, you wouldn't need to care about Existing vs Proposed, you would just set all modifiers and the 2d/3d display of the site to the same mode and continue from there. The main reason to differentiate the two is if you plan to convert the existing INTO the proposed in the real world.

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OK.

And if I do not really care about Existing vs Proposed, I could still misuse it for alternative design version.

 

Also, working with contours is more intuitive for me and I get better control over Modifiers so far.

Maybe I misunderstand the changes but it sounds like controlling proposed by contours is now a second

option over Modifiers to model.

I see that Editing Proposed gives the same Contours.

So I can start pulling to my liking ?

Means overlapping Contours over previous existing contour's positions and such things.

 

 

And I found Height Labels for my thumb 3D polygons. These are really helpful.

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It would be good for experimentation sure!

Feature abuse is always a fun pastime, haha. I'm currently in the process of making christmas lights with the Foliage tool to see if that works, might turn out badly but I never know until I break the rules.

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23 minutes ago, JimW said:

It would be good for experimentation sure!

Feature abuse is always a fun pastime, haha. I'm currently in the process of making christmas lights with the Foliage tool to see if that works, might turn out badly but I never know until I break the rules.

why isn't foliage available in vectorworks architect? 

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1 minute ago, fabrica said:

why isn't foliage available in vectorworks architect? 

Not sure, it really should be. It's more of a visualization feature than a landscaping/landmark specific one. I've put in a wish that it be included in all design series modules.

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On 14.9.2017 at 2:21 PM, JimW said:

I had no issues with Z heights when editing them

 

But I have !

 

In VW 2017

 

I need to select more than one contour at one time

That changes from the limited 2D Version of move/+/- Modify Tool to the standard full

3D Modify Tool. In this case I lose my Z Heights when moving points.

 

Snap to working plane lock button in snapping does not help if on or off in 3D Views,

and even in Top Plan View it will jump to Layer Plane.

 

With a single 3D Poly selected and the limited tool everything works fine.

 

 

VW 2018 DTM

 

It is nice to see that I have no such problem with Z loss in contour edit mode !

 

But it works like VW 2017 when outside of an Contour Edit Mode.

So I can't create a DTM as a workaround each time when I want to edit some 3D Polygons

in Layer Plane Orientation only.

 

 

Edited by zoomer

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On 9/15/2017 at 5:48 PM, zoomer said:

 

But I have !

 

In VW 2017

 

I need to select more than one contour at one time

That changes from the limited 2D Version of move/+/- Modify Tool to the standard full

3D Modify Tool. In this case I lose my Z Heights when moving points.

 

Snap to working plane lock button in snapping does not help if on or off in 3D Views,

and even in Top Plan View it will jump to Layer Plane.

 

With a single 3D Poly selected and the limited tool everything works fine.

 

 

VW 2018 DTM

 

It is nice to see that I have no such problem with Z loss in contour edit mode !

 

But it works like VW 2017 when outside of an Contour Edit Mode.

So I can't create a DTM as a workaround each time when I want to edit some 3D Polygons

in Layer Plane Orientation only.

 

 

Are you in top/plan when editing a 3D poly in VW 2018 when the loss of Z-height no longer happens?

This was a pet peeve for me when working in top/plan mode. Any edit of an elevated 3D polyline etc. ended up that particular point losing its Z-value. It took a short while to figure out what was happening, so I had to work in Top view but with reduced snapping to objects. If this got solved (or at least) in VW 2018 then I'll be a happy camper.

Though... another year, another surprise when it comes to georeferenced stuff, so I will wait until I get 2018 in early October to see if the current issue got solved before making comments on advertised improvement. B|
Though based in the PR documentation on new features it looks like VW Landmark got quite a bit of love this time. :D

 

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I think the problems is quite simple.

 

I took some time realized that when double clicking on a 3D Polygon to go to edit Mode

VW automatically switches to "3D" (arrghh!) Top View.

If you don't realize this you are lost.

(Which you should not be nevertheless in a "3D" View if we had proper Axis Locks)

You can set View back to Top Plan but it will switch back to "3D" with next double click.

 

I hate this behavior and do not see any reasons.

It is even worse, as soon as you activate the 3D Polygon Tool VW will change to a "3D" Top View.

 

Why ? Am I not allowed to create planar 3D Polygons ?

 

 

And btw,

if you want to create 3D Contour Lines from scratch by 3D Polygon Tool, also it say open,

there is a connection line for the open end that is always in my way and even worse is

selectable and always in front.

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On 14.9.2017 at 2:13 PM, zoomer said:

1.

There was mentioned a kind new Meshing,

are there any changes in the way the Mesh is created ?

 

Until now it was that the Meshing Algorithm did not care about the Line Segments .....

 

I see no differences in my DTMs. Even if there may be, as I have my contours optimized for the old

Algorithm by adding extra points to control DTM's Edges creation.

If there are, I would update my DTM workflow.

 

 

 

YES,

there were changes. According toh help :

 

"The Triangular Irregular Network algorithm has been improved, generating site models much faster while avoiding generation errors."

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Talked to Vlad at the Summit and he confirmed the major changes to Site Model included better handling of those cut off swales (said they had numerous requests, bug submits, and forum topics to go by, so they DO listen to us here!)  He explained the tech of it, but I couldn't really grasp it.

 

Also, works faster, and there is the contour edit mode, which actually edits the 2D line on the site model, but then auto converts it back to a 3D poly in the source data.

 

The video shows him converting a corner vertex with the modify tools, to round off the lines.  That smoothing does add vertices to the 3D poly, similar to how a cubic vertex would add to a 2D poly.  Haven't played with it, but naturally worry we might want to still slightly simplify the resulting 3D poly.

 

Overall, I think the faster processing and mesh improvements are great.  Not 100% sold on the contour edit, as it seems limited to very small changes after site model creation.

 

BTW, thanks for the tip on Top View over Top Plan View. I had consistently experienced the loss of Z value, and didn't know why.

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Thanks a lot for reporting !

 

 

BTW

Beside for a quite elite circle of VW users at a Summit,

there is also the option to include such information into the help files so that all users can look for it.

Or even unveiling on the forum, when people ask for such information.

Edited by zoomer

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Just watched Eric Gilbey's one hour webinar (which he says will be posted either on the main site or Service Select) and there were a few more features in Landmark and even site modeling shown there, which I somehow missed at the summit, some of which I think will be quite useful, too.

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Yes, I also hope that the one or other session finds it way into the VSS Area.

 

And also am looking forward to when the first VW 2018 webinars will appear on Novedge.

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Eric said there will be a site modeling only webinar in October.  I will be there! (well, here at my desk, but watching......)

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