Not-so-Final Quality Renderworks

[frv]

Yes Dave, that is a good one. Did that a few years ago for the elevations of a big project I modeled and rendered in Sketchup. Good about it is that you don't need to drag and drop and scale each iteration.

But I now just provide for technical engineering models and drawings and add a few good renders made with C4D and Coronarender and everybody is super happy. 

 

[Tom W.]

8 hours ago, Dave Donley said:

One detail that may be helpful for external renderer workflow would be to use referenced image objects.  When you import an image into Vectorworks you can have it be done as a reference.  Thereafter if you were to update the same image in the same location you would then just update the reference.

 

 

Thanks to you + @grant_PD for highlighting this

[frv]

Just to get an idea about why I think rendering in VW is a waist of time. See attachment. I was experimenting a little in C4D / Coronarender. Took maybe 15 minutes to generate scattered flowers and some grass. I placed only the trees but all the rest is generated by C4D / Coronarender. Render took less than 5 minutes. Clouds are generated as well and produce shadows. Btw Enscape has the same cloud generator by Chaos. Sounds all like advertisement. But I know you can do this more or less as easily in other apps. In VW however this image would be a nightmare to model or render if at all possible.

 

[Pat Stanford]

Your image size is only 1000 x 500 pixels.  Pretty small compared to the 200 to 300 DPI that most people are rendering in Renderworks.

 

The only reasonable way to compare render speeds between programs is to use the same hardware, the same source, the same image dimensions, and the same resolution.

 

I just did a "simulation" of your image.  DTM. Some Image prop plants (lots less than you). Two image prop trees and a Laubwerk (3D modeled) tree .  I put it in an 8" x 3" viewport on a sheet layer set to 150 dpi.  So approximately the same number of pixels as your image.  Rendered in Redshift Exterior Final.  Took about 90 seconds.

 

No shadows from my clouds, my DTM was "pointier" than yours. Lots of differences.

 

Granted this is on an M3 MacBook.

 

I am not trying to take anything away from C4D/Corona Render. But I think that the comparisons between "Renderworks" and the external packages are often not comparable.

[line-weight]

9 hours ago, frv said:

Just to get an idea about why I think rendering in VW is a waist of time. See attachment. I was experimenting a little in C4D / Coronarender. Took maybe 15 minutes to generate scattered flowers and some grass. I placed only the trees but all the rest is generated by C4D / Coronarender. Render took less than 5 minutes. Clouds are generated as well and produce shadows. Btw Enscape has the same cloud generator by Chaos. Sounds all like advertisement. But I know you can do this more or less as easily in other apps. In VW however this image would be a nightmare to model or render if at all possible.

 

 

Now repeat your experiment with a building in the scene.

 

Do a render, then in vectorworks change all the windowframes in the building to a different type. Now time how long it takes you to update the rendered image, including whatever you need to do in Coronarender to update the building model.

 

In renderworks it's the time that's taken to do the render plus about half a second to press the "update viewport" button.

 

Since appreciating that Enscape runs within VW, and that the geometry is live, it's become much more attractive to me and at some point I'm going to try it out. It might be that I'm convinced that the price is worth it. One thing I will test is how easy it is to make walkthrough animations - this is one big limitation of RW. Tryinhg to any kind of animation in RW is a disaster.

[frv]

Thanks Pat,

The image size I usually render is 5000x4000 and would take several minutes to render. Don't know why here at the forum it comes out at such a low res. At 1000x500 you have realtime interactive rendering in C4D/redshift(gpu) and even Corona (cpu).

 

This is not about render speed at all. It's about workflow and image quality.  It just hurts to see the struggle VW users go through for the mediocre results they seem to be happy with. Would like to see what you came up with in VW with Redshift though.

 

[frv]

@Lineweight

The process you describe for updating a set of window frames would take far less than a minute to export and merge the update in C4D. That's not the problem or a timesaver in VW.

The amount of vegetation I usually have for VW projects to render in C4D exceeds what can properly be done in VW. That's one of the reason why for me Enscape would not work as well. I tried Enscape and its nice but for the subscription costs  I can do much better with other apps.

 

Just added another image of a house I am building right now. I really have no clue how I can do such an image in VW thinking workflow and quality.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by frv

[line-weight]

29 minutes ago, frv said:

@Lineweight

The process you describe for updating a set of window frames would take far less than a minute to export and merge the update in C4D. That's not the problem or a timesaver in VW.

 

 

I've never tried such a workflow with C4D so will have to take your word for it.

 

But it just isn't my experience any time I've used an external renderer. I've always found the process annoying and prone to error. The fact that in-app renderers and things like the datasmith live link for TM exist, suggest that I'm not the only person who finds the repeated export workflow problematic.

 

There are a bunch of other things that can be done in RW that are very convenient. For example, I can duplicate several viewports, and use class over-rides to do things like test out several different textures or colours. Or have several different heliodons set up so that I can render the same scene at different times of day. I can have combinations of these options too. So it's not unusual for me to have a sheet with say 8 or 16 viewports set up like this. I then update the whole lot in one go. The slowness of the render is an issue yes, but I can do other tasks during that time.

 

Granted that also might not be possible with Enscape.

 

Your image above is very nice and I can quite believe that it would be difficult to achieve similar in RW. For final presentation type images it may well be that external renderers are the better option. But I think there are quite a few users, who take advantage of what you can do with RW viewports, for various workflows that can't be replicated outside of VW. So that's why I'd take issue with a blanket statement that rendering in RW is a waste of time.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by line-weight

[frv]

Thanks Line-Weight

True, there will be a certain group of users who are happy to use VW for their A to Z workflow. It will save some money as well. A large group of clients do not care or would not like to pay extra  if you would provide a higher level of illustration or animations. 

 

But for me  in-app rendering has the disadvantage though that you have to add a lot of geometry inside a VW file (surroundings and vegetation)  just to render. I rather keep my VW files as simple as possible, focused on engineering and BIM and with as few rendered viewports as possible. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by frv

[Tom W.]

16 minutes ago, frv said:

But for me  in-app rendering has the disadvantage though that you have to add a lot of geometry inside a VW file (surroundings and vegetation)  just to render. I rather keep my VW files as simple as possible, focused on engineering and BIM and with as few rendered viewports as possible. 

 

So when you add the surroundings, vegetation, geography, etc in the outside app are you referencing a survey file inside VW in order to know where to place objects e.g. correct height/position/species of trees etc? Do you create the site in the outside app too, in lieu of a VW site model? Or is the context in these renders necessarily a bit more 'general' rather than a faithful representation of reality? I am completely ignorant as to how it works!

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

It is interesting and perhaps telling how many times a thread migrates to external renderers.  I suppose you can produce something very nice, equal or perhaps in some odd cases better for a single frame render than the VW/C4D combination.  But would a client see the difference.  When it comes to final renders, it's only us (the creators) that see minor improvements.  If you are animating, there is no better combination than Vectorworks and CINEMA 4D.  But, unless you are animating, I don't see the reason for using anything else but Vectorworks for final renders.

 

Using the VW/C4D combination correctly means you are using them as a single application, but this takes time to learn.  There are no tutorials on workflow that are of any value.  Time is the only teacher.

 

[line-weight]

C4D is an external renderer because it is not integrated within the VW application, nor is it included in the VW price.

[frv]

@VIRTUALENVIRONS

I am an architect but also a part time illustrator. My illustrator-clients are architects and developers and they for sure see the difference and are willing to pay for it.

 

Its seems to come down to the idea that taking a VW model to another dedicated render application is a major bottleneck. Export problems and all.

Here at the office 15 architects all working in VW, none of them renders in VW. We use Twinmotion, Lumion and C4D/Corona or Redshift. Exports take a few seconds. Updating models is a none-issue, fantastic animations in Lumion and Twinmotion and high end renders in C4D.

 

All these apps have great tutorials by the developers and by users on the countless YouTube channels.

I am rendering 5mb VW models in 4Gb C4D models with millions of instances for vegatation, people, cars and what not. With a few clicks I can assign countless plants to grow in generated patterns from a simple VW surface.

 

I am not advertising Chaos or have some interest in any render app. but for those interested Creative Lighting has a free webinar on rendering and the quality of light:

https://www.chaos.com/archviz-masterclass?utm_campaign=Chaos-2023-H2-Creative-Lighting-Masterclass&utm_medium=email&utm_content=newsletter2491&utm_source=hs_email

 

 

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

22 minutes ago, line-weight said:

C4D is an external renderer because it is not integrated within the VW application, nor is it included in the VW price.

Your above statement is true from yours and many others point of view.  You design buildings and want the best/easiest final still renders.

 

Although I have worked in many engineering areas, I finish my work in animation.  I see the two programs as a single entity.  That was there intended purpose when Nemetschek decided to link the two programs.  It wasn't VW's or C4D that initiated this function, it was the parent company.

[zoomer]

4 hours ago, line-weight said:

For example, I can duplicate several viewports, and use class over-rides to do things like test out several different textures or colours. Or have several different heliodons set up so that I can render the same scene at different times of day. I can have combinations of these options too. So it's not unusual for me to have a sheet with say 8 or 16 viewports set up like this. I then update the whole lot in one go. The slowness of the render is an issue yes, but I can do other tasks during that time.

 

I did that all the time with VW to C4D Exchange.

I pulled out all versions related objects on extra temporary Version Layers in VW.

What you do with SLVPs and Publish, you can do very comfortable in C4D and

"Render Takes" system.

Exchange was usually a sub 10 second "send to C4D" and sub 5 second load

in C4D and pretty reliable.

And you have the comfort of automatic custom output naming à la

Prefix ProjectName $CameraName $YYYYMMDD $hhmmss Suffix ... to your liking

(Usually most done via RenderTakeName ...)

You can start such batch rendering process when you leave the office and could

be sure it's there next morning.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

48 minutes ago, frv said:

I am an architect but also a part time illustrator.

I was/am also a patent/technical illustrator.  I think this background makes understanding 3D easier.  The first image below was done with pen and ink 40 years ago.  I have done a lot of patent illustration with Vectorworks.

 

Just to get this out of the way, the "Send to C4D" command is patterned after my workflow.  From around 2000 to 2015 I used a set of hooks to get from Vectorworks to C4D.  One day Nemetschek Germany contacted me and asked if I would explain and help implement a " Send to C4D" command.  I agreed and worked with them for about two weeks.  I also wrote the tutorials for Cineversity on either the new command or DXF.

 

Below the technical illustration images are some images of VW's to C4D.  If the renderings appear dated, that is because they are over twenty years old and before the "Send to C4D" command.  These are stills from a 15 minute animation of Ottawa Canada 200 years ago.  The lone building on the hill is where the Canadian Parliament buildings sit today.

 

 

 

 

[frv]

I am lucky to see Twinmotion, Lumion and C4D side by side at a busy architectural office. They ask me for C4Dcorona renders to work with on websites and plan presentations. They go for Lumion and Twinmotion for all animations. Interesting maybe is that most animations and renders are made in less than a day.

I work on a Mac Studio Ultra 128Gb. So Twinmotion and Lumion are not really an option. I am contemplating a move to PC and do all my presentations in Lumion or invest some time in Unreal Engine.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by frv

[frv]

Also have a look at this survey:

https://www.cgarchitect.com/features/articles/450b3b68-2022-architectural-visualization-rendering-engine-survey-results

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, frv said:

Twinmotion for all animations.

When you say animation, do you mean fly throughs and walkthroughs or animation?

[Pat Stanford]

18 hours ago, frv said:

Would like to see what you came up with in VW with Redshift though.

 

Here are some screen grabs from my MacBook Pro Retina Display.    I upped the Sheet Layer Resolution to about 460 DPI to generate about a 5000 x 2000 pixel image. I didn't bother adjusting the aspect ration to get the full 5000 x 4000 pixels.

 

This Image is Redshift without Denoise or Ambient Occlusion at 460DPI.  Took about 26:55 to Render on an M3 Max PowerBook 128Gig RAM. Image is a little yellow because I forgot I had it selected when I took the screen shot.

 

Same Viewport Rerendered with Redshift with  Denoise and Ambient Occlusion on.  Took 41:36

 

Same Viewport and settings as the second image except that the DPI was turned down to 100dpi.  Took 5:30 to render

 

Finally, Same Viewport as above, but rendered with Renderworks Realistic Exterior Final without Ambient Occlusion.  Took 15:58 to Render. 

 

FYI, using Activity Monitor, Redshift pegged all of the GPUs for the duration of the render.  Realistic seemed to peg the CPUs during the render, but I walked away and did not watch to see if they stayed busy all the time.

 

I can seen some detail difference between the 460 and 100 DPI images, but since the screen is only about 216dpi, that difference would probably be there at 200dpi also.

 

The far left tree is Laubwerks. The other trees and the flowers are image props.

[fabrica]

41 mins for the redshift render is just dreadful.... and so far away from the quality of the corona render its not worth a comparison. 

(I confess I do use corona also and would only use shaded render in vectorworks for quick early stage views) 

 

If you want photorealistic/high end it's off to corona or twinmotion you go....

 

 

 

 

[line-weight]

17 hours ago, zoomer said:

 

I did that all the time with VW to C4D Exchange.

I pulled out all versions related objects on extra temporary Version Layers in VW.

What you do with SLVPs and Publish, you can do very comfortable in C4D and

"Render Takes" system.

Exchange was usually a sub 10 second "send to C4D" and sub 5 second load

in C4D and pretty reliable.

And you have the comfort of automatic custom output naming à la

Prefix ProjectName $CameraName $YYYYMMDD $hhmmss Suffix ... to your liking

(Usually most done via RenderTakeName ...)

You can start such batch rendering process when you leave the office and could

be sure it's there next morning.

 

Ah, ok. So anything you can set up in a SLVP you can send to C4D - like class visibilities/over-rides, heliodon time-of-day settings?

 

Are the finished renders then sent back to your sheet layer as images, or do you have to do that manually?

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I found a comparison of V-Ray Vs C4D native renderer and although they were essentially the same in terms of quality (C4D came out a little better), Architects prefer V-Ray.  Visualization people preferred C4D.  

 

Probably because V-Ray is a plug in and C4D is an expensive stand alone program, but another might be what Architects refer to as an Animation, as opposed to what visualization people call animation.  Vectorworks has the functionality to do fly-throughs, but this is not really animation by definition.  Animation is movement/deformation/morphing, etc. of a physical object or connected objects.  A robot arm for example.

 

Also the scale of a project may be a factor.  The sequence below was done around 2011.  There are 1512 bungalows, plus street stuff in this suburb.  This segment is only 5 % of the entire movie.  At first it appears to be a fly through, but then there is Animation.  Not random animation (Twin motion), but exact timing animation.

 

Workflow.  

One block of 42 homes was built in VW's and then Mograph (motion graphics) in C4D was used to fill out the Suburb.

Below the animation are two stills showing the detail of the homes at night and the full night scene.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shortnort]

This is not really applicable to this discussion, but I am having much difficulty getting my site model to be seen in Twinmotion.  I have tried direct link, exporting, etc.  

TM loads the file, the folders show them loaded, but there is NOTHING THERE.  Any suggestions?  Must I explode my model shown below? Grades vary from 1055' to 1074' roughly.

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Try converting your model to 3D polygons first and then exporting.