barkest Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I have a new project at work and it involves VR which at this point in time I know very little about but I do have a pipeline and am actively learning. I wonder that if I look back in 5-years from now that it will be the standard that the client expects to be able to walk around and interact with the building at a very early stage in the planning process or is this too much to ask for and it will be limited to large-scale or high-cost projects? Quote Link to comment
AlanW Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 @barkestHi, Love to hear of your progress as I am keen to get into this ASAP. VR is possible with Web View now, but I am expecting and hoping that 2018 will provide further advancements as I haven't had many bites back on VR posts that I have placed lately. How interactive you want to go will be the big item that may slow the process down but its not too difficult to set up an existing 3D mode from VW into a gaming engine and walk around an interact with. 3D modeling was seen as too expensive for small offices but now its the norm and expected and those doing the modelling (experienced Modellers who know the VW program) would say its faster to produce a 2D set of drawing this way. Look forward to the day when VW model will be a fully interactive immersive experience. Quote Link to comment
BCE Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) @Alan Woodwell No Bites..LOL and your not likely to. The average client isn't interested in Renderings & Gaming It's not a game when they have their pants pulled down on site because the data is lacking or rubbish and the architect can't tell them why, while the contractor makes a killing. Interestingly enough..C4D is up 4 Sale..might as well flip it if the times right... Edited August 8, 2017 by BCE Quote Link to comment
AlanW Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 @BCEIf your Client is being done over because of a lack of data etc, then who is to blame??? Garbage in, Garbage out. Quote Link to comment
BCE Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) What data do you offer with VR? I do everything along the supply chain with data->Optimise-> Design->Engineer-> Certify->Construct Clients & AEC industry loves it... OT, Clients trust engineers with data because they offer proofs..unfortunately the same can't be said of Gamers and Artists LOL, you need to get out into the real AEC Industry mate..that's why you arent getting a response from others.hth Edited August 8, 2017 by BCE Quote Link to comment
AlanW Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Normally i wont respond to this but from an old mans view and from some 44 years in the architectural and construction industry from small residential to 12,000 seat indoor arenas, documenting, site management and from a detail documentation background, working with builders on construction management i can say that i have a little experience in all aspects of the profession. I wouldn't judge anyone on face value without knowing their credentials, or their attitude to other people. So I leave you with part of my background to dump on should you wish. Have a great day. 1 Quote Link to comment
BCE Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Credentials may get you a client/job interview or short listed, but it's data and proofs that gets you into the A-Team How does VR without Data & Proofs get you into the A-Team, please share your experiences as I am genuinely interested Don't worry about losing clients here there are none. Quote Link to comment
barkest Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Hi Alan, I am just at the start of things and learning C# so I can do more stuff in Unity. VW is in the pipeline for sure but I am not at that stage yet. With regard to VR then if VW are investing in it then they can see it is important so I don't think it is a bad place to move towards. Having said that they will never be a Unity, and I would not expect them to be, but I would like to provide a fully immersive experience than I think you will get with VW. With regards to the people who think it is not necessary then that's fine and maybe they are correct, time will tell. I am happy to keep you up-to-date with progress off board maybe. Interestingly the number 1 freelance job at the moment is VR including archviz walk throughs (go figure) Edited August 8, 2017 by barkest Quote Link to comment
Matt Overton Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 4 hours ago, BCE said: What data do you offer with VR? I do everything along the supply chain with data->Optimise-> Design->Engineer-> Certify->Construct Clients & AEC industry loves it... OT, Clients trust engineers with data because they offer proofs..unfortunately the same can't be said of Gamers and Artists LOL, you need to get out into the real AEC Industry mate..that's why you arent getting a response from others.hth Co-ordination is in my experience an art not a science yet again in recent weeks have meet with engineers who use VR rigs for BIM co-ordination and frankly it's amazing. The abiltiy to zoom in on and hammer doubts that would take hours of drawing reading to find is full of value. Our latest insert building inside existing shed project has me keen on drone* video generated point clouds are something we really need going forward. Data from AR and VR really does show a lot of promise... (It's just not to change the need for drawings anytime soon, given these comments might sound like a reversal of ones in another thread) *well ok Wide angle walking camera would work but you know drones more fun. Quote Link to comment
BCE Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Matt Overton said: The ability to zoom in on and hammer doubts that would take hours of drawing reading to find is full of value. Couldn't agree more..IMO Clients aren't interested in drones, they prefer to equip themselves with iphones and instructions fly down to their projects, taking photos comparing Bim Details with Data, and Finally posting on Social Media & google. As I said previously there are no clients here, no use posting. I am interested in trialing the technology with data, but I am not getting excited with VWs 2018 Edited August 8, 2017 by BCE Quote Link to comment
AlanW Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 @BCE Hi, some thoughts. Credentials may get you a client/job interview or short listed, but it's data and proofs that gets you into the A-Team I have been there and done that and certainly not concerned about pleasing anyone any more, too old and life is too short. How does VR without Data & Proofs get you into the A-Team, please share your experiences as I am genuinely interested I guess where I am coming from here is VR is (could be) part of the time line of the delivery of a project. As I said I am not interested in getting into the A-Team. I am interested in finding new ways to convey information to the Client at the early stage of a project. This is (my current thinking) where it can be used effectively. Certainly at the early stage of a project to convey the idea to anyone this could provide the most effective way as most Clients have difficulty understanding 2D plans and elevations. I am not sure how it could be used further down the project timeline and I agree with the comment that this is not a game and I have seen the ramifications of a poorly documented project and the cost overruns and court cases that occur because of an individual or teams failure to understand and implement good contract practice. So now I use VW and as I cannot change it nor the way it is formulated I can only learn how to use it efficiently so I can use it as a tool to produce the same product as I did with pencil on velum years ago. Who knows where and how we will be documenting 10 years from now and I am not interested in remaining stagnant and retiring to the nursing home just yet so this is why I pursue these ideas. Regards Alan 3 Quote Link to comment
barkest Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Maybe sometimes the focus is on architecture whereas we use it for interior design. In fact here in the UK VW is used extensively for interior design (google jobs). I have no idea about the world of architecture and VR (which is why I asked) but for sure ID is a great vehicle for VR Edited August 8, 2017 by barkest Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 If I watch Apple AR kit and first beta videos of what is possible, imaging meeting a client on site and instead of Apples cup or lamp inserted, I could walk with the client along and through the 3D building model on site environment, examining on the iPad screen, I could imagine that may answer a lot of questions not asked yet and force many decisions. (Like you will be able soon to examine Ikea furniture in your apartment) Quote Link to comment
MRD Mark Ridgewell Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) On 8/7/2017 at 4:16 PM, barkest said: I have a new project at work and it involves VR which at this point in time I know very little about but I do have a pipeline and am actively learning. I wonder that if I look back in 5-years from now that it will be the standard that the client expects to be able to walk around and interact with the building at a very early stage in the planning process or is this too much to ask for and it will be limited to large-scale or high-cost projects? Hi, Certainly agree with your view, any tools that help engage with clients at an early stage and throughout a project are surely good news. Doesn't necessarily mean 'vr'. VW web view is a good start for entry level (ok, lighting and a few things need developing). Of course not forgetting 'ar' and 'mr' where 3d info. can be overlayed on top of the real world to see information in a specific context. Arguably more useful for architecture and interiors than vr! My feeling is that 3d in aec is being driven from two sides; BIM (the rather dull technical side) and Gaming/ Entertainment, the fun (and engaging) bit that 'the public' want (and more and more expect) to use/ see/ experience. Somewhere in the middle is the solution I'd like to use! M Edited August 8, 2017 by MRD Mark Ridgewell text amended Quote Link to comment
barkest Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Seems like AutoDesk is way ahead with Stingray https://www.autodesk.com/products/stingray/overview Quote Link to comment
Matt Overton Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 10 hours ago, zoomer said: If I watch Apple AR kit and first beta videos of what is possible, imaging meeting a client on site and instead of Apples cup or lamp inserted, I could walk with the client along and through the 3D building model on site environment, examining on the iPad screen, I could imagine that may answer a lot of questions not asked yet and force many decisions. (Like you will be able soon to examine Ikea furniture in your apartment) Yes Also been looking at ARkit with interest and playing a proof of concept. ok mostly just loading VW model to Apple supplied demo. Not at the full scale of a walk thru but more under laying a scale model view under the drawing sitting on a table. Shows a lot of promise on helping the clients see drawings how we see them. Quote Link to comment
Alex Z Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Sorry for bumping this thread as I realise there haven't been any comments for more than a month. We have been working on validating a couple of use cases for AEC and AR technology (particularly we're interested in Hololens usage - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/hololens). One of our use cases was to view BIM models - with the concept being able to walk through the building during construction and fit out stage and see the BIM model overlaid on the actual space. Is there anyone here who's interested in discussing the given topic? 1 Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) Hololens looks like the more interesting option, but imho for the next few years 3D models that you can navigate through without too much additional hardware or software is probably going to be the norm in most cases, e.g. 3D PDF. The one problem, at least for me, is not the 3D model but to share it in a way without using 3rd party services hosted on external clouds where data ends up residing with those parties and to be able to do that in a relatively straightforward manner on normal hardware (i.e. not needing a ridiculous amount of processing and graphics power) that can also be used on the client's system if they desire. 3D PDF fits that bill for now, but I'm interested to see how all this VR stuff is going to work out as the current manner with using headset displays using smartphones etc. seems to be popular with only a limited number of people. Edited September 26, 2017 by Art V Quote Link to comment
Alex Z Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Art V said: Hololens looks like the more interesting option, but imho for the next few years 3D models that you can navigate through without too much additional hardware or software is probably going to be the norm in most cases, e.g. 3D PDF. Thats true that some of the cases can be covered by 3D PDF, but there are others that require real size 3D models which user can walk around and check (for instance for quality assurance on site purposes). 2 hours ago, Art V said: The one problem, at least for me, is not the 3D model but to share it in a way without using 3rd party services hosted on external clouds Why does it bother you? What are you trying to achieve by keeping the models inside the devices, internal servers? This way you're loosing online collaboration possibilities, and most popular cloud providers like Amazon provide almost 100% of uptime which most likely can't be achieved using internal servers. 2 hours ago, Art V said: to be able to do that in a relatively straightforward manner on normal hardware (i.e. not needing a ridiculous amount of processing and graphics power) that can also be used on the client's system if they desire Again this depends on the use case, but most of them can be covered by a mobile companion apps (if we're talking about hololens app as a main app) and everybody have mobile phones nowadays. 2 hours ago, Art V said: 3D PDF fits that bill for now How are you currently using 3D PDF? Quote Link to comment
barkest Posted September 26, 2017 Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 I will be developing for the Hololens again soon after my sidetrack to AR. It is VW to Unity Quote Link to comment
Alex Z Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, barkest said: I will be developing for the Hololens again soon after my sidetrack to AR. It is VW to Unity What kind of solution are you going to tackle? Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Alex Z said: Why does it bother you? What are you trying to achieve by keeping the models inside the devices, internal servers? This way you're loosing online collaboration possibilities, and most popular cloud providers like Amazon provide almost 100% of uptime which most likely can't be achieved using internal servers. The top three reasons for this are... 1. Client Confidentiality 2. Client Confidentiality 3. Client Confidentiality Uptime etc. is usually not the issue. And I rather have the client take the risk of unintentionally violating it than me. No cloud provider is going to accept a liability agreement/contract in case data security gets compromised. It may not apply to each and every project, but it does apply to enough projects to not use such hosted services. Quote Link to comment
Alex Z Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Art V said: The top three reasons for this are... 1. Client Confidentiality 2. Client Confidentiality 3. Client Confidentiality Uptime etc. is usually not the issue. And I rather have the client take the risk of unintentionally violating it than me. No cloud provider is going to accept a liability agreement/contract in case data security gets compromised. It may not apply to each and every project, but it does apply to enough projects to not use such hosted services. Do you think hosting project data using 3rd party service BUT 100% encrypting data would satisfy the needs of such projects? Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Alex Z said: Do you think hosting project data using 3rd party service BUT 100% encrypting data would satisfy the needs of such projects? No, because accessing the data often means decrypting on the third party server and therefore making it theoretically accessible to the 3rd party. This is e.g. the case with Google Drive and a few others if I remember correctly. Edited September 26, 2017 by Art V Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Alex Z said: How are you currently using 3D PDF? It depends, sometimes it is to show a concept design, though it can have a reasonable amount of detail and sometimes it is a fairly detailed setup where you want to see the potential issues (clashes, space required, whether it meets certain prerequisites or not etc.), this can be with or without environmental details . By using layers for the various parts people can then turn part on/off to have a better look at other parts of the model. It is often not the kind of models where a life-size walkthrough is necessary at that point though it may be done in a face to face meeting using the actual model should it be necessary. I can see the advantage of VR, but it should be easy to use on standard hardware in my case at this point in time. It's not the very high end VR that I need for now. Quote Link to comment
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