Lines left behind when moving Groups

[hamrocks]

So, I'm having an (un)usual issue with vectorworks that I can't solve, or find any information on. I have a stud wall composed of several groups, each stud in this wall is an individual group with a rectangle and 2 lines. 

 

When I move the wall and all the stud groups, the 2 lines are left behind, but not the rectangle. The 2 lines are not actually in the position they are displayed in , but inside the rectangle. When I click into the rectangle to edit the group, they are displayed within the rectangle again, and when I exit the group, they are also now displayed within the rectangle. However, I have to click into each and every group and exit again to get them all to display properly. 

 

This problem has been plaguing me in other instances too, and doesn't seem to be just a graphical display issue, I've had several instances where the lines that have been left behind export to PDF, even after I have 'fixed' them by entering each group. 

 

Is this a known issue?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Untitled.mov

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by hamrocks
Added video instead of images

[Gadzooks]

Hamrocks - this looks like a version of the issue I highlighted recently and has been logged as a bug.

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/50647-group-manipulationreshape-not-working/

 

If you could post a file with an example of this it may be easier to confirm.

 

@Marissa FarrellWill most likely be able to comment in more detail.

 

[hamrocks]

Thanks for the response. It doesn't seem to be file specific, I can't recreate this issue on my Co-workers Windows PC with the same file.

 

Is this issue also related to the one where if two lines are trimmed together, I have to zoom in and out to see the result? It's really slowing me down and not an issue I had in VW 2016. 

[Gadzooks]

I'm on Mac as well. Although I don't expect it to relate to Mac only - happy to play around with a file if you post it.

[Kevin McAllister]

4 hours ago, hamrocks said:

Is this issue also related to the one where if two lines are trimmed together, I have to zoom in and out to see the result? It's really slowing me down and not an issue I had in VW 2016. 

 

I suspect this issue is related to your graphics card which your signature shows as an Intel Iris Graphics 6100. VW 2017 is more demanding graphics wise and can have trouble with integrated graphics cards. What's your navigation graphics dropdown set to under Vectorworks>Preferences>Display? If you switch it to Best Compatibility this issue may improve.

 

Kevin

[hamrocks]

Gadzooks - I read through your thread that you mentioned, this does indeed seem to be the same issue. I can't really upload the file online without stripping most of our proprietary data first. I could do this, but this issue literally affects every file that has been created from about 2012-2017, long before I started at the company. I can't just go back and recreate all the files (and rotated groups and symbols) to get around the problem even if it is file specific. 

 

Kevin - My integrated graphics card is indeed Intel Iris 6100. I tried doing what you said last week, but there was no improvement when switching to best compatibility mode . Only even slower zoom and re-draw times. 

 

On a side note, if Vectorworks has trouble with integrated graphics cards on mac, what mac will it ever run well on? Only a mac pro?

 

All these little niggles are really killing my productivity. I've been using VW for over 18 months and still can't come close to the speed I used to draw at with AutoCad. Is the windows version less buggy? I might consider switching to windows and building a dedicated workstation if I can be sure I'm not going to have the same issues with slow zoom/redraw times and basic commands.

 

 

[Gadzooks]

Hamrocks - (on my earlier post) you will have seen that, with the layer elevation set to anything other than 0, it seemed to trigger the problem. 

Can you check this with your file. If you are using a '+' level it would be good to test back at zero and see if the problem persists. Not a fix, but at least it may confirm its connection to the bug.

[Kevin McAllister]

4 hours ago, hamrocks said:

Gadzooks - I read through your thread that you mentioned, this does indeed seem to be the same issue. I can't really upload the file online without stripping most of our proprietary data first. I could do this, but this issue literally affects every file that has been created from about 2012-2017, long before I started at the company. I can't just go back and recreate all the files (and rotated groups and symbols) to get around the problem even if it is file specific. 

Do these groups do the same thing if they are pasted into a new file? If they do, maybe paste one to a clean file and post that here...

 

4 hours ago, hamrocks said:

 

Kevin - My integrated graphics card is indeed Intel Iris 6100. I tried doing what you said last week, but there was no improvement when switching to best compatibility mode . Only even slower zoom and re-draw times. 

 

On a side note, if Vectorworks has trouble with integrated graphics cards on mac, what mac will it ever run well on? Only a mac pro?

 

There is a list of recommended video cards. Generally VW wants a Nvidia or Radeon card for demanding work which currently means a higher end MacBook Pro or iMac. Its very file dependent though. Are you using your laptop with an external display with a higher resolution than the internal one? Or maybe two displays? This can also affect performance.

 

Kevin

[hamrocks]

Kevin,

 

Here is a file attached with the worst affected object. This is an electrical symbol that's in just about every drawing I've inherited. I've only noticed an issue with this group in VW 2017, it even prints now as if it is mirrored depending on the rotation seemingly at random. I've also attached a video file showing how it behaves on my mac specifically.

 

My MacBook Pro Mid 2015 is listed under VW 'Quality approved hardware' as being fully compatible with VW 2017. I normally run the retina display along with a 1080p 24" monitor for drafting, but disconnecting the external monitor does nothing to help this issue. I recorded the attached video file without the monitor connected and no other programs running, and in both best performance and best compatibility mode. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Untitled 3.vwx

Electrical_Symbol.mov

[Gadzooks]

Hi - I'm still interested to crack this one.

 

Kevin is definitely the main man, so don't want to steal the show, but looking at your file it opens in Top/Plan View. Have you seen what happens as soon as you change to Top View.

Is this something that helps for the moment? (No? - I can hear you tearing your hair out from here)

 

OK - It seems to be a problem with the arc as it has a 'floating' control.

 

I just tried messing with this by duplicating one of your groups and doing this......(sorry I'm no good with video etc, but I think this proves a solution)

 

The original groups on the same page (not unsurprisingly) returned to being AWOL

 

Kevin will probably be able to identify why the arc handle is outside the arc - I would think it may well have been drawn incorrectly or have been corrupted??

 

BTW - I think you should then change your group to a symbol (most likely with the '2' as part of it) as you're using it to better advantage (file size) then.

 

Over to you Kev...

[hamrocks]

Thanks for taking a look at that, It's nice to know I'm not going totally crazy!

 

Definitely seems to be related to the stray arc handle. I'll see if I can find a stud wall from the first example and upload that too. 

 

I dread to think how many times this group has been imported/exported from autocad, back to vectorworks and copied from drawing to drawing. I wouldn't be surprised if it's corrupt. I don't have a problem redrawing it, but it's just in so many drawings already that were working fine on other versions of VW and on PC. 

 

If I could get to the bottom of why things are broken, I could start to implement changes in drawing standards etc going forward to prevent things like this. Older drawings will still be a challenge, but if this group displays correctly in 'TOP' view, it may be quickest to recreate the old viewports from that view instead of 'Top/Plan'. I'll have to look at this later. 

 

The rationale for it being a group as opposed to a symbol - is that the '2' can be individually oriented to be horizontal in each instance. I hadn't bothered in that screenshot since they were unreadable anyway. Personally, I'd rather make it a symbol and not rotate the 2...

 

 

[Gadzooks]

Probably shouldn't make your day worse, (why are you then??) but if it had been a symbol you'd fixed it just the once for all your drawings.

 

(I'm going to go and lock myself in a cup'd now until I'm allowed out)

[Kevin McAllister]

7 hours ago, hamrocks said:

Kevin,

 

Here is a file attached with the worst affected object. This is an electrical symbol that's in just about every drawing I've inherited. I've only noticed an issue with this group in VW 2017, it even prints now as if it is mirrored depending on the rotation seemingly at random. I've also attached a video file showing how it behaves on my mac specifically.

 

I think this is a bug with arcs. I would bug submit it using the online form (Bug Submit) or by submitting it to your distributor. It seems to be related to arcs drawn starting at 0 degrees that have an arc of 180. Their start point switches to 360 in the OIP after they're drawn. As an interim solution I would suggest rebuilding that part of your symbol. The quickest way would be to go into the symbol/group, select the line and the arc and choose Modify>Compose.

 

Quote

My MacBook Pro Mid 2015 is listed under VW 'Quality approved hardware' as being fully compatible with VW 2017. I normally run the retina display along with a 1080p 24" monitor for drafting, but disconnecting the external monitor does nothing to help this issue. I recorded the attached video file without the monitor connected and no other programs running, and in both best performance and best compatibility mode. 

 

I think this display problem is not actually a display problem. Its a regeneration problem caused by the bad geometry. VW is drawing the 0-180 arc and the 180-360 arcs alternately. I can replicate it on my machine when I zoom in and out over the same geometry.

 

@GadzooksI tried some of the same testing to see if it was related to your bug, but when I reshape the group by pulling one corner over the other VW converts the arc to a poly line and the issue goes away 

 

Kevin

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Kevin McAllister

[Gadzooks]

(I'm still in the cup'd)

 

@Kevin McAllister- yes, similarities but annoyingly different.

Plus, I don't see Modify>Compose helps - Did you try this, as it doesn't work for me. Unfortunately Hammy has groups rather than symbols so its really a problem on the old drawings that have numerous instances that would need every one changed.

 

@hamrocksThe following proposal doesn't fix the reason for the symbols drawing incorrectly. As we all seem to be now concluding, I think this could be a bug as the end point handle has been allowed to stray and VW doesn't know what on earth to do with it?.

 

But it may help you to take a different strategy with the numerous drawings that have this problem to save some tedious work - assuming you've not already come up with this yourself.

 

 

Using classes (thank goodness you used classes), will allow you to find all the culprit symbols on the layer. Once the little critters have been identified and highlighted go to Modify>Convert>Convert to Polygons. This will leave you with them all grouped, but you can always Modify Group to (say) change the position of one or two. I assume that this will be a help on the older legacy files you have and will allow you to print etc.

 

As for the new work, you will probably create a 'clean' symbol and start afresh.

 

Hope this helps and - can I come out of the cup'd?

[Pat Stanford]

There was a similar discussion about cars in a thread about bridge lines back in April

That thread seemed to decide that 180° is a challenging number for VW.

 

If possible, consider changing your arcs to 179.9° or 180.1° and you might have better performance. 

 

It sounds as if at least part of the error has been fixed, but likely for VW2018.

[Kevin McAllister]

17 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

(I'm still in the cup'd)

 

@Kevin McAllister- yes, similarities but annoyingly different.

Plus, I don't see Modify>Compose helps - Did you try this, as it doesn't work for me. Unfortunately Hammy has groups rather than symbols so its really a problem on the old drawings that have numerous instances that would need every one changed.

 

File attached. All I did was enter each group, select the horizontal line and the arc and choose Modify>Compose. It will only affect each instance as you say... not much that can be done if they were inserted as groups. You might be able to fix the original symbol, select all the original instances (groups) and then use Modify>Convert>Replace with Symbol.

 

Edit: Following up on Pat's comments I did an experiment. I exported the problem file back to 2016 and it behaves fine. Its definitely a 2017 issue.

 

Kevin

 

Untitled 3_KM.vwx

Edited August 7, 2017 by Kevin McAllister

[Gadzooks]

21 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

That thread seemed to decide that 180° is a challenging number for VW.

 

Laughable if it weren't so serious and costs valuable time to practices who buy into VW with such blind faith (good band, but I digress). 

Seems big changes always trumpeted, but errors swept under the mat. 

[hamrocks]

Kevin - thanks for the help. Just to make sure I understand though - the arc geometry itself isn't corrupt, it's only that VW 2017 can't handle the 180° arc sweep correctly? 

 

At least there are some workarounds, but it's very frustrating to have to go back and fix stuff that was working fine in VW 2016.  

 

[Kevin McAllister]

23 hours ago, hamrocks said:

Kevin - thanks for the help. Just to make sure I understand though - the arc geometry itself isn't corrupt, it's only that VW 2017 can't handle the 180° arc sweep correctly? 

I believe it's a bug. They behave the same way even if you paste them into a new file. I could also recreate the problem by drawing a new arc. I'm pretty sure I encountered it myself when working with Marionette but I thought it was a Marionette bug, not arc bug.

Kevin

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kevin McAllister

[Gadzooks]

16 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Edit: Following up on Pat's comments I did an experiment. I exported the problem file back to 2016 and it behaves fine. Its definitely a 2017 issue.

 

Kevin - I assume all these similar problems are 'fixed' by opening in 2016? If so, good job we were all offered a rebate on 2017 ;)

 

@Andrew DaviesI'm just concluding that this thread displays similar characteristics to your problem with text. 

@Kevin McAllisterDid you see Andrew's question about text in symbol?

Similar once again - Do you think its connected?

[hamrocks]

2 hours ago, Gadzooks said:

 

Kevin - I assume all these similar problems are 'fixed' by opening in 2016? If so, good job we were all offered a rebate on 2017

 

@Andrew DaviesI'm just concluding that this thread displays similar characteristics to your problem with text. 

@Kevin McAllisterDid you see Andrew's question about text in symbol?

Similar once again - Do you think its connected?

 

I can confirm I am also having an issue with text inside symbols not mirroring correctly FYI... I don't think it's related, and this is the first time I've been able to re-create it in a fresh file. Solved so far only by converting the symbol into a group!!!

 

I've attached the test file, symbol on left is mirrored instance of the one on the right. When it is converted back to a group, the text only appears correctly again with a zoom/redraw. 

 

Trying to decide whether these issues are bugs or just VW working as intended in some way I don't understand is driving me crazy. I'm getting really tired of 'fixing' crap that was working correctly in VW2016. 

 

Untitled 2.vwx

[Gadzooks]

Ive had a look at this.

 

Although I don't count myself qualified - I'm just prepared to slog away at it as I know someone else on this great forum would do that for me. But this now has me beat.

 

You'll have seen my thoughts on this to @Andrew Davies. In the end I wasn't sure wether the mix of 3d and lettering is just VW trying to make the best of where it thinks you want to view the 'space' you've created.

 

What I am sure of is that ditching your symbol and converting it to a group seems to be rock solid and will reliably flip the text for you. As long as Adjust Flipped Text is set in the Document settings. I assume this is what you've found?

 

What is clear is the hint panel that tells you that this option if chosen will flip text so its always legible in groups and symbols IS A LIE.

 

[hamrocks]

43 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

 

What is clear is the hint panel that tells you that this option if chosen will flip text so its always legible in groups and symbols IS A LIE.

 

 

The text flips correctly no problem when editing within symbol as per the check box in document settings. If you try rotating either symbol you can see that the text maintains it's position relative to the house. The problem is that 5 or 6 symbols like this one are rotated and mirrored through a development design which is currently 100 houses, and soon to be nearly 1300! I can't avoid using symbols here. I need to find a way to re-draw this symbol so that the text works correctly. I don't care if the text doesn't rotate, I just need it to flip over when mirrored or turned more than 180 degrees. 

 

On a side note, is there a way to replace symbols without having to go back and manually adjust the rotation of each one? Every time I replace symbols they seem to 'forget' their current orientation and default back to the original symbol rotation.

[Gadzooks]

Yes, I can see the problem. Think this is the time to just suck it up and work with it rather than against it. 

 

So, 

Is there a reason to utilise a symbol (obviously you would if it worked!) because, for this drawing, there appears to be no reason you would want to go back and make any 'global' changes to all instances. There's the file size, but you could probably cope? 

 

Or,

Maybe if the leccy and gaz (sic) boxes need to be annotated on your plans and you want to stick with the power a symbol offers, keep with just the coloured 'key' showing the box only, and place a legend somewhere on plan. I realise this is no good if you have copious notes on other symbols, but I'm not sure what they have in the way of information.

 

Finally for symbol placement remember you can click and hold the symbol as its placed and then rotate to to position you want it to be. For this to work to your advantage you can utilise the 'on next mouse click' for symbol origin when you create it. Which you appear to have done on the example you've posted, as its on a corner of the plan layout.

[Kevin McAllister]

3 hours ago, hamrocks said:

 

The text flips correctly no problem when editing within symbol as per the check box in document settings. If you try rotating either symbol you can see that the text maintains it's position relative to the house. The problem is that 5 or 6 symbols like this one are rotated and mirrored through a development design which is currently 100 houses, and soon to be nearly 1300! I can't avoid using symbols here. I need to find a way to re-draw this symbol so that the text works correctly. I don't care if the text doesn't rotate, I just need it to flip over when mirrored or turned more than 180 degrees.

 

Given that its only linework, can I ask why the symbol is 3d at all? It seems like the text issue is a limitation of "3d" or Layer plane text. If its screen plane (2d) it behaves as expected. Making everything 2d would solve your issue.

 

3 hours ago, hamrocks said:

 

On a side note, is there a way to replace symbols without having to go back and manually adjust the rotation of each one? Every time I replace symbols they seem to 'forget' their current orientation and default back to the original symbol rotation.

 

How are you replacing your symbols? They should maintain their orientation (rotation and/or mirroring).

 

Kevin

[hamrocks]

Kevin,

 

I didn't put these symbols together. Im aware that they are 3D and don't need to be. 

 

When I created a new 2D symbol earlier today I selected the existing 3D symbols, and then right click>replace>choose a symbol. This is when I lost any rotation and/or mirroring when inserting the new symbol. The new replacement symbol was inserted identically with no rotation/mirroring.

 

I'll try and find some time to look at this again tomorrow.