Is there a simple way to create a simple materials takeoff from basic solids?

[line-weight]

I'm drawing up some slightly complicated shelving, in 3D. Although the overall thing is a bit complicated, it will in the end all break down to rectangular pieces of MDF.

 

From the finalised design, I will want to create a cutting list, which will look something like this:

 

 

It will run to more items than that, but that's all the info I will want.

 

A-1 might be the top and bottom of unit A

A-3 might be the shelves, all of the same size, that go in unit A

B-3 might be the back of unit B

 

In my idealised Vectorworks la-la land here's how it would work:

I have a group called "unit A", and nested within that are symbols "A-1", "A-2" and "A-3". These symbols are just extruded rectangles.

My worksheet pulls all these symbol names into the first column. It puts the number of instances of each symbol in the next column. Then it pulls in the width, height and extrusion depth of each symbol and puts it in the relevant columns.

 

If I edit my "unit A" group, by changing the dimensions of any of its parts then all this gets updated automatically in my cutting list.

 

Is this actually possible to do in a way that isn't painful? I've not really used records and so on up until now, and starting to watch a few tutorials is making my head hurt already. For example - can it even pull in the dimensions of a basic solid rather than predefined attributes of an object type like a slab or wall? Do I have to start putting things into purpose made classes to make this work?

 

Really the question is - is it worth trying to do what I describe, or just draw it all with "dumb" objects and do my cutting list manually?

 

 

[BCE]

@line-weight

Try extracting surfaces tool ->assign a class->use a database?

If you want to Optimise & Automate the cutting list ...goodluck

it can't be done in this program (travelling salesman Algorithm)

Edited July 14, 2017 by BCE

[RickR]

There are several other options.

• Yes a worksheet can pull overall dimensions (see 'Insert Function' when defining your database columns. Area, basic length, width height and many others.
• Sorting and sub-totaling are how you get summaries of the individual parts.
• Making everything a symbol might be adding an extra step.
• I can't imagine why I would extract a surface. Length * Width in a cell will get you the same info. Yes you can do math with variables in a cell header.
• I'd probably make a simple record with just 'material type' and price or a few other fields, so I could filter, add, and sort based on that.
• Don't forget that you can have more than one database section in a worksheet. Then you can have standard cells that add values of those sections.

Yeah, some head aching can be caused by having too many options and trying to find a clear path. But too much time buried in automating tasks is a real issue, it's called work!

[BCE]

You can never have too many options, having too many variable is the issue

Fix some and you can optimise & solve the build..hth

[Miguel Barrera]

On 7/14/2017 at 4:45 PM, BCE said:

Try extracting surfaces tool ->assign a class->use a database?

If you want to Optimise & Automate the cutting list ...goodluck

it can't be done in this program (travelling salesman Algorithm)

 

I would say the opposite. Just about anything can be done in this program if you know how to do it. Whether you use the supplied tools, a little bit of programming or a combination of both, there is always a way to compile a material list.

 

 

line-weight,  can you post a sample file.

[BCE]

It's not that it can't be done in this program, those that have the biggest say  don't want it done. 

 

[line-weight]

15 hours ago, Miguel Barrera said:

 

I would say the opposite. Just about anything can be done in this program if you know how to do it. Whether you use the supplied tools, a little bit of programming or a combination of both, there is always a way to compile a material list.

 

 

line-weight,  can you post a sample file.

The attached file is not the real one I'll be using (it's not suitably organised yet) but a sample showing a very simple version of the kind of thing I'll be doing. I've set it up as two groups; each group represents a shelving unit. Within each group, every part is a simple extruded rectangle and each of those parts I've made a symbol which has a name like A_1 or B_3. Some of them have multiple instances, some don't.

shelving_sample.vwx

[line-weight]

On 15/07/2017 at 1:51 AM, RickR said:

There are several other options.

• Yes a worksheet can pull overall dimensions (see 'Insert Function' when defining your database columns. Area, basic length, width height and many others.
• Sorting and sub-totaling are how you get summaries of the individual parts.
• Making everything a symbol might be adding an extra step.
• I can't imagine why I would extract a surface. Length * Width in a cell will get you the same info. Yes you can do math with variables in a cell header.
• I'd probably make a simple record with just 'material type' and price or a few other fields, so I could filter, add, and sort based on that.
• Don't forget that you can have more than one database section in a worksheet. Then you can have standard cells that add values of those sections.

Yeah, some head aching can be caused by having too many options and trying to find a clear path. But too much time buried in automating tasks is a real issue, it's called work!

 

Thanks, I will maybe try and have a fiddle around.

 

The main reason for using symbols is to allow me to have multiple instances of something with certain dimensions. Say, a shelf component in a unit with 5 shelves.

[grant_PD]

I think InteriorCAD does this. It's a plug in for VW.

https://en.extragroup.de/

[Miguel Barrera]

line-weight,

 

The solution was to  create a record with the code, length, etc fields and attaching the record to the extrude inside each symbol. After populating the fields with data, I created the worksheet with a database row that calls for all objects with the record "Cabinet Part" attached and checking components of Symbols also. Note that columns with the SUM option will display the unique values while columns without it will display the addition of the values.

 

shelving_sample.vwx

[Pat Stanford]

Miguel,

 

How do you fill the data in the record? Do you use a script? Or do you enter the data manually?

[Miguel Barrera]

I entered the data manually but it is only once inside each symbol definition since the record is attached to an extrude rather than the symbol. The length, width, and thickness could be automated with a script, but other fields such as unit price would have to be entered manually (or from an external database?).

[line-weight]

Miguel,

 

Thank you for this, very helpful. I'll take a look at the file.

 

How complicated would it be to automate the length/width/thickness (I've not really any experience with scripting)? Because although, as you say, it's only necessary to enter this info once per symbol, if I change the size of anything in the model I presumably have to go and also change the figures in the record (and remember to do it).

[RickR]

Some thoughts;

• Adding data to fields can be done in in bulk in a worksheet (copy/ paste) if there aren't any Sum actions. You could easily have a version of the worksheet just for that function. I've also used location (=Xcoordinate() or Xcenter, etc) to help sort and identify objects to make data entry easier.
• Marionette is easier to learn than scripting and could do the automation. In fact there are some bookshelf type objects floating around already for theft, er inspiration. Build your own PIO with record data in the OIP!
• Depending on how complex your symbols are the record might be attached to the symbol so it's elements are pre-optimized. Breaking the process into chucks often helps.
• If the symbols get in the way of records and listings then you might have them break into groups on placement, or even later as the design develops. Groups can be replace with symbols if you need to go backwards. Again personal process and goals will matter the most.

So what are you doing, closet organizers?

 

[Miguel Barrera]

5 hours ago, line-weight said:

Miguel,

 

Thank you for this, very helpful. I'll take a look at the file.

 

How complicated would it be to automate the length/width/thickness (I've not really any experience with scripting)? Because although, as you say, it's only necessary to enter this info once per symbol, if I change the size of anything in the model I presumably have to go and also change the figures in the record (and remember to do it).

 

It will take some work to automate and fill the record fields but is it really worth the effort? when you attach the record to the extrude, the dimension data is just one tab away in the object info. Moreover, what if you decide to include other data such as material, cost, part number, etc.? you will still need to enter this info at some point in the process.

[BCE]

On 17/07/2017 at 4:01 AM, Miguel Barrera said:

 

I would say the opposite. Just about anything can be done in this program if you know how to do it. Whether you use the supplied tools, a little bit of programming or a combination of both, there is always a way to compile a material list.

Clients aren't interested in material lists, be it Particleboards  or Building blocks. They are more concerned with why is 2 sheets  made into a bookshelf  costing $500? or 1K m3 concrete in a building costing $3M?

That is the conundrum and that wont be solved in any Architectural BIM program at this stage.

[line-weight]

On 18/07/2017 at 11:13 PM, Miguel Barrera said:

 

It will take some work to automate and fill the record fields but is it really worth the effort? when you attach the record to the extrude, the dimension data is just one tab away in the object info. Moreover, what if you decide to include other data such as material, cost, part number, etc.? you will still need to enter this info at some point in the process.

 

Well, it sounds like it's probably not worth the effort, at least for this one off project. To be honest it sounds a bit like it might also not be worth the effort of attaching records in the first place, if they are not automated, because it doesn't really achieve what I'd hoped for which is an arrangement that not only saves me time in manually writing up a cutting list, but also is resilient to errors creeping in when I make changes to the model and forget to update something in that cutting list.

 

It looks like it's yet another relatively simple thing that you think VW must be able to do, but actually it can't, without significant time being sunk into, effectively, coding (I sort of think that when I pay for a software package, I'm paying for someone else to have done that).

 

We are told that we are "BIM ready" but surely this is an example of exactly the kind of task that an effective BIM software should facilitate and make *easy*.

[line-weight]

On 18/07/2017 at 8:13 PM, RickR said:

Some thoughts;

• Adding data to fields can be done in in bulk in a worksheet (copy/ paste) if there aren't any Sum actions. You could easily have a version of the worksheet just for that function. I've also used location (=Xcoordinate() or Xcenter, etc) to help sort and identify objects to make data entry easier.
• Marionette is easier to learn than scripting and could do the automation. In fact there are some bookshelf type objects floating around already for theft, er inspiration. Build your own PIO with record data in the OIP!
• Depending on how complex your symbols are the record might be attached to the symbol so it's elements are pre-optimized. Breaking the process into chucks often helps.
• If the symbols get in the way of records and listings then you might have them break into groups on placement, or even later as the design develops. Groups can be replace with symbols if you need to go backwards. Again personal process and goals will matter the most.

So what are you doing, closet organizers?

 

Something like that, yes, a combination of clothes storage and general shelving that's a bit complicated and can't be covered by standard objects.

 

Thanks for adding your thoughts. I'd be starting from scratch to learn Marionette so probably it doesn't make sense just for this project. Maybe this is something to come back to in the future when I have some time to fill.

[RickR]

Even if you don't change it, this object might be useful:

This one might help with that cut list:

 

[RickR]

I just saw that @Alan Woodwellis working on material takeoffs.

 

[AlanW]

Hi Have a look at this post the potential is there to do this with Marionette, will play further. See last post where i use existing model to get material takeoffs.

 

[line-weight]

18 hours ago, RickR said:

Even if you don't change it, this object might be useful:

This one might help with that cut list:

 

 

Interesting to see that shelf object. Thanks. I can se it could potentially be more useful than the VW supplied shelving objects, especially if I could customise it.

 

I'm new to Marionette. Realistically - from a standing start - how long do you reckon it would take me to learn up enough marionette to allow me to edit that object so it included, say, a back panel? Is it a day's worth of watching tutorials and fiddling around? Or a weekend? Or more?

[line-weight]

14 hours ago, Alan Woodwell said:

Hi Have a look at this post the potential is there to do this with Marionette, will play further. See last post where i use existing model to get material takeoffs.

 

Thanks. I'll follow this thread with interest.

[Marissa Farrell]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

 

Interesting to see that shelf object. Thanks. I can se it could potentially be more useful than the VW supplied shelving objects, especially if I could customise it.

 

I'm new to Marionette. Realistically - from a standing start - how long do you reckon it would take me to learn up enough marionette to allow me to edit that object so it included, say, a back panel? Is it a day's worth of watching tutorials and fiddling around? Or a weekend? Or more?

 

It will mostly depend on how well you understand objects in 3D space, such as their relationships with each other. After that, it's just making sure you wire the right nodes for the required math.

Adding a back panel should not be too difficult, if you'd like some guidance, let me know.

[line-weight]

10 minutes ago, Marissa Farrell said:

 

It will mostly depend on how well you understand objects in 3D space, such as their relationships with each other. After that, it's just making sure you wire the right nodes for the required math.

Adding a back panel should not be too difficult, if you'd like some guidance, let me know.

Thanks. If I find some time to look at this, maybe I will take up your offer.

 

I think I'm reasonable ok with understanding objects in 3d space. But I've never fiddled around with marionette at all before. For example, importing that object into an empty file, I have no idea even how to edit the node network for it, or where it's saved, or whether if I edit the network it only applies to that instance and so on. All basic stuff no doubt but it takes a while to get one's head around that basic stuff when you start using something new.