digitalcarbon Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) please note how a browser based system is way different than... 1. running it on your machine 2. just porting a cad system to run in a browser (in other words, its not just running things in a browser just because...but the browser approach has major advantages) also, note their comments on 'nearly no crashes' & why that is so and we would never have need of these discussions of "what is the recommended hardware & graphics card for this years release?" posts on the tech board that chews up all our time and stresses out those of us buying a new computer. Edited June 27, 2017 by digitalcarbon 1 Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 No crashes would be nice. Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Probably is the future, or back to the future (terminal services). I'm intrigued by the idea of multiple users working on the same file at once, all of the new problems that would create. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share Posted June 27, 2017 not a problem i could seriously use this ability with VW (btw Ohshape would be terrible for Architectural projects) but the collaborate ability world be good to follow Quote Link to comment
Bruce Kieffer Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I believe that at the first Design Summit Jeremy Powell gave a presentation of VW running in a browser, or was I dreaming! Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 i remember seeing it at the time but i did not understand the value of it. my thoughts were "what's the point?", "what value is that?" if it ends up being just VW but in the cloud and does not have the collaboration & less crashing of Onshape then what is the point? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted June 28, 2017 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 hours ago, digitalcarbon said: if it ends up being just VW but in the cloud and does not have the collaboration & less crashing of Onshape then what is the point? ^ One of the reasons for the above is the below: 21 hours ago, digitalcarbon said: and we would never have need of these discussions of "what is the recommended hardware & graphics card for this years release?" posts on the tech board that chews up all our time and stresses out those of us buying a new computer. The crashing comment depends on many things, in most applications, crashing happens as a system runs out of memory which would be on demand scalable in a cloud application, so if you gave it an impossible task to do with the cloud machine set to only have 8GB RAM allocated, it could scale up to 24 and avoid the crash. Most of Vectorworks' crashes these days are not related to memory however. The collaboration options were built into Onshape from the start it looks like which is a distinct advantage, but yes it's still at the root a CAD application running only in a cloud environment with a web GUI. I'd have no problem with this system being ONE option for users to access Vectorworks, but for users with no/limited internet, or users who dont want to have a mandatory subscription in order to keep using the application it's not appealing. I believe users should always have the choice of "I bought it, I own it, I keep it forever." 2 Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Jim, i understand the "i bought it & own it" thinking. however, the thinking of "i own it" only means that i own a version w/o ever upgrading. upgrading is a way of life if a person plans on staying current. sometimes i get asked to provide some training for other VW users & i find out that they are 2 or 3 versions behind me. this is a major problem for training because i don't know what they can and can't do. & if i convince them to get 2017 then pow! major learning curve they also have hardware issues if they upgrade. introducing 2 weeks of chaos into their office! yikes! right now the yearly upgrades are a major time of excitement (what's new) & anxiety. i spend a lot of time stressing about: "do i have the right hardware?" "do i have enough memory?" "the two other people i work with...i need to tell them to upgrade. are they going to cooperate?" "the 3 people that i provide training for...will they upgrade or do i need to keep past versions of VW on my machine?" "the massive VW library that i have made over the past 3 years...should i batch convert? is anything going to get corrupted?" yikes! we had projects that were over a year in length and did not upgrade (although we had a subscription) because we did not want to mess up the file. but at the same time new projects were started on the new version because: 1. we wanted to use the new features of VW. 2. we paid for it & felt that we needed to use it. (this introduced having two symbol library's that needed to be maintained) yikes! so Onshape issues new improvements about every 3 weeks. this is a nice "bite" size approach that EVERYONE gets & does not rock the boat no hardware, OS issues, & learning curve is kept low the US Interstate System's success was not due to, trying to improve existing US highways, but by bypassing an infrastructure that could not handle the future demands with an infrastructure that could. the integrated circuit bypassed the direct wiring paradigm that proceeded it & we never looked back. cloud based collaboration CAD is going to bypass personal workstations w/ the above headaches & i will pay $100/month for it. (pass that on to your accountants) Edited June 28, 2017 by digitalcarbon Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted June 28, 2017 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted June 28, 2017 Just now, digitalcarbon said: the thinking of "i own it" only means that i own a version w/o ever upgrading. upgrading is a way of life if a person plans on staying current. I have many users that only upgrade every 5-7 years or so, and then most of them only do so because Apple or browser updates force them to. These users generally do things in a much more oldschool 2d-only format however, they do not push the boundaries of the software like some of the more active members here do. 2 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: so Onshape issues new improvements about every 3 weeks. this is a nice "bite" size approach that EVERYONE gets & does not rock the boat This is a personal preference of mine. I would much prefer we roll features out in packs of 2-3 every few weeks or months rather than have large yearly releases, but that may just be my innate impatience with development speeds. However, there are a LOT of things outside of the actual use of Vectorworks to consider when switching, adding or removing pricing structures, which many people with higher pay grades than myself specialize in and consult with the big bosses on. 5 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: cloud based collaboration CAD is going to bypass personal workstations w/ the above headaches & i will pay $100/month for it. (pass that on to your accountants) I'm all for this as an option, I think we should expand our pricing offerings significantly. Also, while I'm sure it would just be a nightmare for some larger firms to try to utilize (herding cats and all that), multiple users working live in the same file is incredibly cool and I totally want that. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 Jim, the multiple users thing has some thinking that it will be a problem. can you imagine how a game of basketball would be played if each member needed to "check" the ball out in order to use it? that would be crazy. by working together on a collaborative CAD, the pros work with the newbies & their experience rubs-off on them. you being to "read" each others mind & know where your team is & what they are doing just like basketball. problems can be fixed on the spot rather than "i need to review your file at the end of then day or week to see if its correct" also Onshape has no save button so even if someone in the middle of the night deletes 1/2 the bldg...its not really deleted. you just scroll back to where the accident occurred overall, i think its a false fear. Quote Link to comment
bcd Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: by working together on a collaborative CAD, the pros work with the newbies & their experience rubs-off on them. you being to "read" each others mind & know where your team is & what they are doing just like basketball. this could be a ballet or a train wreck depending on how well synced the designers are. It would be very interesting to put together such an experimental design ensemble. Count me in! Edited June 28, 2017 by bcd Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 bcd, it would be a train wreck at first. ever watch a team of all stars play? they have to learn to work together. like the Russian hockey team did when they played Canada in the 70's. Canada had the best players but the Russians worked better as a team. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 don't people play online games where they work as a team & wear headsets & complete missions? why can't we work like that? how come video games look like this (see below) but we are all stuck in the "plan-view-single-player-mode" of CAD? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted June 28, 2017 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted June 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: bcd, it would be a train wreck at first. ever watch a team of all stars play? they have to learn to work together. like the Russian hockey team did when they played Canada in the 70's. Canada had the best players but the Russians worked better as a team. 1 minute ago, digitalcarbon said: don't people play online games where they work as a team & wear headsets & complete missions? why can't we work like that? how come video games look like this (see below) but we are all stuck in the "plan-view-single-player-mode" of CAD? Very much true, but rarely in teams of hundreds as some of our larger firms have. Don't get me wrong, this is certainly an idea with merit, just not one that a lot of places would be keen to adopt and certainly not if they had no other choice. Many, many people are very set in their ways and huge mental and organizational changes like this are not taken lightly by them. Definitely something for the experimentally minded, but probably not for the traditionalists. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 "build it and they will come" Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 keep VW the same with yearly updates etc for the general... but use the browser based platform for a new paradigm and eclipse the industry... just sayin Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 eat a york peppermint patty "Jim Wilson, Man of the year" "how one man changed an industry" a future New York Times Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted June 28, 2017 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted June 28, 2017 We shall see! Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 also, it would be interesting to know how much time is spent by VW engineers to make the Windows version & Mac version? could not all that be eliminated? then they could be put to use on other things. and all the time vw spends on hyping up the prerelease interest (time spent) trying to get people to upgrade (time spent) hardware & OS tech support issues (time spent) Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 so what i would do is have a team at VW work with the people at Onshape to develop an architectural universe. currently the MCAD universe is not suited at all for architectural universe. i have tinkered with Onshape and it is NOT for building/s, trees, utilities etc Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 hours ago, digitalcarbon said: by working together on a collaborative CAD, the pros work with the newbies & their experience rubs-off on them. This was my first thought when I saw OnShape's live collaboration. Not just newbies though, my main thought was actually about rubbing off on Directors We touch on this a little in our office because I use screen-sharing a lot with one of my colleagues and I just talk across the office to him while we take a look at whatever issue he has. If VW had live collaboration I'd probably do this a lot more and I think it would be particularly useful for the old guard, not just the newbies. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted June 28, 2017 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted June 28, 2017 Users getting into method "ruts" is indeed a big issue in support and training, hadn't thought of collaborative environments as educational but that does make sense. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 so lets pretend for a moment and say that Christiaan has a project and he is the master BIM operator. he then invites: me in to do some direct modeling on some grand stair case...(giving me my own layer and locking me out of the rest) Luis in to do some rendering / set up / sheet view thing... a few more to do landscaping and trees.. would that not be a good thing? he does not need to ask any of us what version we are running... or how to WGR anything... nor share dropbox. oh wait he uses one drive...so now i need to set up an account with them. ugh! Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: he does not need to ask any of us what version we are running... or how to WGR anything... nor share dropbox. We have some of this already with Project Sharing, but I get your point, it's still way less friction. Quote Link to comment
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