Support for 3D 'Wall Detail' component returns at windows

[Christiaan 641]

For a while now we've had the ability to return wall components at either side of a Window object in a Wall. Which is great.

 

The problem is that it's only in 2D, in Top Plan view.

 

I think it's well past the time that this should also work in 3D (including separate control of the window head). This is of critical importance for us.

 

Apart from just not showing in 3D it also causes problems for things like Section Viewports. Without 3D returns we end up having to add masks to our Section Viewports to hide the wall components that shouldn't be showing. Pretty anachronistic for where Vectorworks is these days.

 

Here's an example of Interior and Exterior Window Detail component returns in plan view, which is great:

 

But these returns don't show in 3D:

 

This is how our Section Viewport ends up looking:

 

And this is roughly what we'd expect it to look like:

Edited June 27, 2017 by Christiaan

[mike m oz 341]

This is an essential need so model derived Sections and Details can be correct. 

 

We need to be able to have the required appearance in 2D and 3D on all four sides of an opening.  

 

We also need to be able to have different behaviours on each jamb for contexts where the building condition is different on each side.  For example when Door and Window units are ganged together or when one side of a Door or Window unit is adjacent to an internal corner or a projecting pillar.

 

A more complex need that also needs to be solved is the treatment around the edges of non rectangular openings like 'L' shapes and circular/polygonal openings.

[whashisface 13]

+ 1 for both of the above. Essential!

[JROCCI 0]

Agreed.  Essential.  (Please, please, please)

[blimey 4]

I will add my vote as well. It is not only for the sake of the section viewport (as masking and 2D cosmetics in the annotation viewport can be a (timeconsuming) work around. But if we want to use or model in a BIM way or even just for 3D rendering. This is essential. 

 

Also the wrapping works only on the side wall. I want to be able to wrap the top wall. 

 

As an illustration : I managed more or less to get the window I want in plan view : 

But here is what if looks like in 3D : top jam is not hidden (no wrapping of the wall) and the insulation is visible (no 3D wrapping)

 

>>> So I tried to add external trim as a work around... but the top gap remains... 

[Kevin C 35]

Can I also ask that when reviewing any door and window tool that you take account of how doors and windows are placed within walls and that there is more than one way to generate a window / door reveal, which VW is very bad at doing.

 

Also, if this is a Wishlist:

 

• When setting out a window or door it should be set out in relation to a specific component of the wall which we should be able to choose.  My own preference would be to attach the window or door to the inside face of the outer leaf of the wall, so that whatever the internal wall make-up is, the door or window would be set out correctly and I wouldn't have to keep manually adjusting the offset to make it sit correctly.  We should also be able to select a check reveal of a size which can be set in to the OIP
  • You should assume in the first instance that when a multiple component wall is created or selected that the designer actually wants detail a project and the rendering is secondary (I think that you will find that is the case with the majority of users).  If someone wants a beautifully rendered project, let them do it with a basic wall - but don't let difficulty in rendering prevent producing competent working details and drawings.  Information for statutory consents and actual building is still done in wireframe drawings conveying the information to the contractor etc. There is no point producing beautifully rendered images and drawings if competent working drawings cannot be produced.  IMHO, the only way to sort this is to think out of the box in relation to how we create models and present information.
    • Allow the user to create a custom profile which can be simply attached to the door or window object and is in effect a 2D symbol with whatever customisation the user wants, creating in effect a hybrid door or window. This should also be able to be created in plan and section form so that we can add custom cills / lintels / thresholds etc. without having to navigate the current system that is not suitable for purpose.

The holy grail and the best modelling solution is to be able to fully model each component and for VW will assemble correctly (or as instructed by the user),  but as we have found time and time again, if the VW engineers are not given the correct detailed information at the time of creating a module, they will create to the best of their abilities at the time - or at worst, just make assumptions and once the module is created it will be working as 'designed' and very little can be done as it confirms to the parameters that were given at the time of production (no matter whether they were right or wrong).  What is being proposed would create a simple functionality within the door and window objects that would allow users to attach the correct detailing parameters to each object.

 

In relating this to BIM levels 0, 1, 2 & 3 - which is something that VW seems to champion at every opportunity

 

BIM Level 0 - 2D Drafting with collaboration by paper or electronic means.

• The majority of the industry is well ahead of this.

 

BIM Level 1 - Typically a mixture of 3D CAD for concept work, and 2D for drafting of statutory approval documentation and Production Information with an element of CDE, usually managed by the main contractor. 

• The is probably the stage at which the majority of the industry is at just now.

 

BIM Level 2 - This is distinguished by collaborative working – all parties use their own 3D CAD models, but not necessarily working on a single, shared model and all design information to be shared through a CDF - the only CDF for 3D models currently available is ifc or COBie.  Note that detailing is not a requirement of BIM Level 2, although detailing must link to the building model - this can be done by simple referencing.

• The is where governments have said we should be at right now and where only very few VW users are, because of the apparent misunderstanding and difficulties that VW ( and all the other 'minor' design software providers) has because other suppliers are again championing their workflow and selling it as the only solution and from what I have seen, is no better than VW, but what they do, is listen to their users and admit when something doesn't work - throw it away and start again.  They have is the ability to join up their components (roofs/walls & floors etc.).  If VW is to try to   remain a player in the BIM market, VW must look at its overall workflow and realise that there is no point having all this connectivity and fantastic modelling and rendering functionality if it struggles to get basic technical functions.

 

BIM Level 3 - Currently seen as the holy grail, this represents full collaboration between all disciplines by means of using a single, shared project model which is held in a centralized repository. All parties can access and modify that same model, and the benefit is that it removes the final layer of risk for conflicting information.  Again, detailing is not specifically mentioned, although it would not be too much to expect that each discipline would still be creating details (2D and 3D) within their own systems and have the project model make reference to them, as the ifc file format has a long way to go before it will be capable of supporting 3D models at that level of detail.  It is also extremely unlikely that the 'Open BIM' model will be required to have the detail hard coded into it, but to have it referenced.

• VW has the capability to be a main player in this, but it must get its house in order.  Things like automatic mapping to ifc are going to be critical / importing and exporting revit files - with full functionality (the import function loses all object data except the graphics) and the manufacturing and supply chain have already decided that rvt files are the file format of choice for objects (irrespective of BIMstore as the vwx and ifc object are almost non-existent).

 

Taking this to the next level, detail hybrids could be attached to many of the standard junctions which VW struggles with and although the principles would be set out (as they currently are), when producing sections etc. the correct detail would always be displayed.  The next stage would then to the details to be create the details as 2D/ 3D hybrids and attached as part of the overall structure.  This could get round a lot of issues that users are currently wasting a lot of time trying to overcome.

 

[zoomer 782]

Exactly.

100% agree.

[mbft 3]

Hello all,

Not sure if this subject is still valid but I could use some help. I see that the wall component returns work for the PIO windows but not for a custom symbol.

Anybody know if it's possible ? In 3d clipcube the wall components follow the 3d wall opening I defined for the symbol but in 2d view they do not.

 

[Christiaan 641]

mbft, with a little bit of work you can use Auto Hybrids in your symbol to achieve what you want.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Christiaan

[Alan.AHA 4]

I'd just like to bump this request again. The lack of 3d returns make the use of the editable window and door tool useless. I cannot see why this has not been fixed in the last 5 years despite repeated requests and the fact that better tools exist in different regions of Vectorworks