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Forced Updates


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I guess that you all know that the older VectorWorks versions do not work on the latest Apple Operating Systems.

This forces VectorWorks users to buy the latest VectorWorks Updates.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is not a fair way to do business or do we all agree on this?

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I think this is fair.

It is the unity of OS, Hardware and Software.

While availability of faster Hardware and more capable Software is just a comfort,

things like security make progress and constant change mandatory.

 

And I think it is ok that you can't expect from a Software Company to do 3-5 times the

amount of work to do adaptions for all previous versions also.

And things like 32 vs 64 bit or other dependencies or incompatibilities prevent from

making running older Versions of Software on current OS's completely.

 

You are not forced to upgrade VW in any way beside that you may just "want" to have it or

are forced to keep compatibility when collaborating.

It is totally ok to not update your software regularly because you see no profit in new features,

can't/won't afford it, don't like the need to learn and adapt or change your workflow.

Newer not necessarily means better in any case.

I understand this very well.

 

When you want to stop to run behind and can your work done well or even better,

freeze time for your tools.

But that just means that you need to also freeze your hardware and OS.

As hardware sometimes stop working at one time, that means searching for compatible

replacements on eBay or craigslist if necessary. And maybe to avoid internet connections

for those devices for security reasons.

You can do so for many many years.

 

Of course each year makes it harder to jump back on the train.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

This is forced by Apple mainly, they alter Xcode (what most of Vectorworks is created in on the Mac side) each OS version and make it incredibly resource intensive to try and support more than the prior two operating systems.

 

On the Windows side, this isn't nearly as common, with many versions of Vectorworks still running in even the latest version of Windows today:

 

 

This is not something we choose to do to drive upgrades.

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Yes, it is unfair, but the company being unfair is Apple.

 

Apple makes changes to the operating system that "break" software that complied with all of their requirements when it was written.

 

To ask a company to continually update older versions to be compatible with an operating system that had not been released until 2 years after it was written is also unfair. Keep the original hardware and operating system and the original VW will continue to run just as it always has.

 

It is kind of like changing the car you drive from a pickup truck to a Mercedes E Class and then being mad at Mercedes that you can no longer haul 1000 pounds of bricks.

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I think the car comparison wasn't optimal as especially every new VW Version does

exactly what the previous version did* + More.

 

And yes, forgot Windows.

That legacy compatibility is impressing.

So another option for keeping software without the need to risk old Mac hardware dying.

 

(*Which I think is also not optimal, like keeping all legacy tools and workflows for complete

backwards compatibility with old files and usage. At the expense of making development

and fixing much more complicated and harder. I tend to prefer the Apple approach like

throwing all 32 bit Apps out of their store. That makes sense in many ways.

I'm aware that I may also reach an age where I may no more take part with all changes

and have to pull the plug.)

 

That change is not nice of course, but from my thinking, not unfair.

 

Edited by zoomer
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No.  Not unfair.  What you are asking is for Vectorworks (or any other software company) continually upgrade every past version of their software to meet current operating system changes.  That would be quite an undertaking, and not remotely economically viable.  Trust me, I wish 2010 still ran, even though I'm a user of 2017.

 

I am very happy though that my copy of Cinema 4D from 2011 is still humming along nicely on Sierra, but every time I upgrade my OS, I know it's a possibility that legacy software will no longer function.

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4 hours ago, zoomer said:

I think this is fair.

It is the unity of OS, Hardware and Software.

While availability of faster Hardware and more capable Software is just a comfort,

things like security make progress and constant change mandatory.

 

And I think it is ok that you can't expect from a Software Company to do 3-5 times the

amount of work to do adaptions for all previous versions also.

And things like 32 vs 64 bit or other dependencies or incompatibilities prevent from

making running older Versions of Software on current OS's completely.

 

You are not forced to upgrade VW in any way beside that you may just "want" to have it or

are forced to keep compatibility when collaborating.

It is totally ok to not update your software regularly because you see no profit in new features,

can't/won't afford it, don't like the need to learn and adapt or change your workflow.

Newer not necessarily means better in any case.

I understand this very well.

 

When you want to stop to run behind and can your work done well or even better,

freeze time for your tools.

But that just means that you need to also freeze your hardware and OS.

As hardware sometimes stop working at one time, that means searching for compatible

replacements on eBay or craigslist if necessary. And maybe to avoid internet connections

for those devices for security reasons.

You can do so for many many years.

 

Of course each year makes it harder to jump back on the train.

I do think Zoomer and others here are correct that asking VW to be backwards compatible for older versions of the OS would be economically onerous. That said,  every version of VW should be able to import (at least) every previous version and Save As… as well.

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2 hours ago, SamIWas said:

Trust me, I wish 2010 still ran, even though I'm a user of 2017.

 

Sam, have you tried running VW 2010? It runs on my macMINI with OS10.11.x. So does VW 2009. Earlier versions do not and neither does VW 2011 or VW 2012. Then VW 2013-17 do run. I keep old versions around and old machines to run them, though I rarely have the need; but when I do, they work perfectly.

 

To the original question, it's all perfectly fair. It's a subjective judgement call, to upgrade the OS/SW or not. I once had to buy a new computer to stay current, but nobody made me. This is nothing new. Since about 1980 we've all danced this dance.

 

Raymond

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23 hours ago, MullinRJ said:

 

Sam, have you tried running VW 2010? It runs on my macMINI with OS10.11.x. So does VW 2009. Earlier versions do not and neither does VW 2011 or VW 2012. Then VW 2013-17 do run. I keep old versions around and old machines to run them, though I rarely have the need; but when I do, they work perfectly.

 

To the original question, it's all perfectly fair. It's a subjective judgement call, to upgrade the OS/SW or not. I once had to buy a new computer to stay current, but nobody made me. This is nothing new. Since about 1980 we've all danced this dance.

 

Raymond

 

Yes, I have tried running 2010.  Crashes on boot every time.  It doesn't matter, really, as I'm a full user of 2017.  I was not supporting the OP's argument...quite the opposite in fact.

 

It's just that 2010 was the last version that would open, how shall we say, not-exactly-legitimate files from previous versions, with a warning.  I can't blame them for this.

Edited by SamIWas
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Hi there,

I started this discussion and I red your reactions and I am willing to believe your stories, but they leave two questions unanswered:

 

1. Why is VectorWorks the only application that requires updates when Apple changes it's OS?

(Of course Apple should do this when necessary and I understand that it is not easy to keep everything compatible).

 

2. If Apple is really to blame for the 'inconvenience' (I still have my doubts there) then is it fair that the VectorWorks user pays the price?

Why doesn't Nemetscheck protect their customers and put the bill for keeping older versions compatible with Apple?

 

And for the car comparision: imagine what would happen if the government or the fuel companies suddenly decide that fossil fuel is no longer available. We all have to buy electrical cars now, or put an electric motor in our car. Do you think that they would get away with that without paying the car users for their conversion costs?

  • Like 1
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Well, one idea is that a CAD App like VW uses more hardware and OS features

than other standard software and therefore is more effected by changes in OS.

 

But you are not so wrong,

my older versions of C4D and Modo, which have similar or even more demands

on graphics and CPU - all still run flawlessly from OS X Lion to macOS Sierra.

The only other App I remember that needs OS dependent updates is Parallels :)

 

As for Oil and Cars,

Electric - yes

Oil - legacy

Cars - legacy

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
3 hours ago, Nol Twigt said:

Hi there,

I started this discussion and I red your reactions and I am willing to believe your stories, but they leave two questions unanswered:

 

1. Why is VectorWorks the only application that requires updates when Apple changes it's OS?

(Of course Apple should do this when necessary and I understand that it is not easy to keep everything compatible).

 

2. If Apple is really to blame for the 'inconvenience' (I still have my doubts there) then is it fair that the VectorWorks user pays the price?

Why doesn't Nemetscheck protect their customers and put the bill for keeping older versions compatible with Apple?

 

And for the car comparision: imagine what would happen if the government or the fuel companies suddenly decide that fossil fuel is no longer available. We all have to buy electrical cars now, or put an electric motor in our car. Do you think that they would get away with that without paying the car users for their conversion costs?

 

1) This is not the case at all. The first two examples I can think of would be Adobe Creative Suite and Microsoft Office, both of which require modern mac OS versions or encounter compatibility issues/feature limits when used with older OS versions.

2) If we covered the bill to keep it compatible across the older OSes (especially when the majority, over 80% of users according to our install metrics are either on the very latest macOS, or the two immediately previous ones at any given time) that would directly translate either into increased costs for all users regardless of their operating system, or reduced reinvestment in research and development, so then everyone suffers in an attempt to appease a small percentage of our users.


The breakdown is something like this:

Across all versions (these numbers are approximate from our analytics data), the % of Vectorworks users running any version of macOS is ~65%

Focusing on only that 65% of our total user base:

~51% run OS 10.11

~30% run OS 10.10

~18% run 10.12

and the remaining ~2% is a combination of OS 10.4 through 10.9.  

 

So not only is the number of users that we would help by trying to stretch support back further quite small in the grand scheme of things, but there is also the fact that Vectorworks will not stop running on an older machine with an older OS just because new OSes were released. The only thing that breaks compatibility is trying to run a newer versions of Vectorworks on an older OS, or an older version of Vectorworks on a new OS. As long as you keep the originally matched OS and version of Vectorworks, things will keep working fine. If you make the call to upgrade your OS, then it will change what versions of Vectorworks you can use. We never push service pack updates or mandatory version releases that interrupt your ability to use the software based on your OS.

  • Like 1
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JimW,

Thanks for your reaction, but I am afraid you totally missed the point, or I totally don't understand you.

I, like your 65% Apple users, am forced to update my Apple OS now and then, because I work with several other applications.

When I update my Apple OS my old VectorWorks does not work anymore.

It costs me over $ 1.000,- to buy a VectorWorks update that I don't really want.

 

I think that a company like Nemetscheck does not need to sell it's product in a such way that consumers feel forced to pay.

Companies that 'steal' from their costumers usually don't last long. Buying an upgrade should be a fair deal.

If you want it, you buy it. If not, you don't.

If you love the product but begin to hate the producer, because he tries to put his hand in your pocket, things really start to go wrong.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
5 minutes ago, Nol Twigt said:

I, like your 65% Apple users, am forced to update my Apple OS now and then, because I work with several other applications.

When I update my Apple OS my old VectorWorks does not work anymore.


This is what I meant, we are not the ones forcing OS updates. This is due to Apple forcing other companies like us and Adobe to stop supporting older software by altering so much as to make it economically impossible to keep compatibility.

 

Your original criticism is completely legitimate, but it is Apple that your criticism should be aimed towards. We do not create the ecosystem in which users HAVE to upgrade their OS every year or two, fortunately on the Windows side this is not the case. If regular forced upgrades from Apple are unacceptable, switching to Windows is still a viable option to avoid Apples practices. OS choice has become complex recently with both companies moving in different directions as far as hardware upgradeability and compatibility are concerned, but finding the best set of pros and cons is very specific to the individual needs of each user.

 

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1 hour ago, Nol Twigt said:

I, like your 65% Apple users, am forced to update my Apple OS now and then, because I work with several other applications.

 

So ultimately the issue is caused by upgrading your other applications?

 

This is all about different business philosophies, nothing more. The industry moves like a caterpillar, one company bounds forward and the others catch up slowly. Apple's approach is to jettison anything it feels is in its way. Microsoft's approach is to hold onto things until its no longer possible to. NV is much more like Microsoft, holding onto legacy items as long as possible. This is both good and bad. Good because there's a lot of compatibility when opening and working in old files. Bad because there's a huge old code base to support this making it less nimble when OS changes happen. The incompatibilities with VW are usually caused by outside sources (switching the rendering engine for example means rendering look different from version to version). Because most software is now by "subscription" everything is pushing forward more than it used to. This approach also keeps more users current, generates more revenue for product development, and has a more predictable cost for customer budgeting. Lots of users don't like it but I suspect its the future.

 

Also keep in mind the major difference between Apple and Microsoft for years was that Apple made hardware and Microsoft did not..... I suspect that as Microsoft gets deeper into hardware they will start losing long term compatibility too.

 

Kevin

Edited by Kevin McAllister
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1 hour ago, Kevin McAllister said:

So ultimately the issue is caused by upgrading your other applications?

 

You will be forced to "upgrade" OS X if you have to replace Apple Hardware

or because they don't support older systems with (security) updates, too.

 

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

You will be forced to "upgrade" OS X if you have to replace Apple Hardware

or because they don't support older systems with (security) updates, too.

 

True enough. But upgrading VW also can also "force" a hardware upgrade because of the new dependence on graphics hardware. My last two Macbook Pros have more processing power than VW can use.  Again all about business choices. 

 

KM

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Same here with my old Mac Pro. Sticks with 10.7.5 and therefore VW 2015 :)

 

Sitting in front of it is like a time travel but feels great.

Not everything was bad in the past ;)

 

VW 2015 was a great release.

I was amazed what features were already in there :)

 

 

As said, staying with an older VW version is pretty ok,

as long as you also freeze your Mac Hardware and OS X,

or use Windows.

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I often wish VW was more like Apple with it's willingness to pure dead wood from the trees.

After all, you don't get good apples without pruning to let the sun in.

 

Apple do trim aggressively and maybe over do it at times. They aren't shy about making developers transition either.

Yet in VW old tools that have been rewritten and replaced by much better tools yet the old tools still get pride of place in workspaces and keyboard shortcuts. I think the perception of VW would be better if they shipped a best practice workspace that wasn't shy in moving legacy tools out of the workspace* and moving the improved tools front and centre.   

 

* those tools could still work to edit (even duplicate) existing you just would be able to create new objects.

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Sorry Jim, Kevin, Matt,

I feel that you all drift away from the point that I tried to make by starting this discussion.

Of course it is all right that the software industry moves forward like a caterpillar. One firm makes a step, others follow. That is how it goes.

Of course software needs to develop. This is a never ending story.

 

However the point is that Nemetscheck forces users to upgrade VectorWorks, which costs each user more than  € 1.000,-

They seem to blame Apple for the need to upgrade, but with 400.000 VectorWorks users this gives the Nemetscheck bank account a rise of something like 4 billion (!!!) dollars.  I don't think that Nemetscheck is very sorry for this situation.

 

This situation continues as long as the VectorWorks users are happy with the new features or feel dependent because they need the upgrade.

All other applications that are mentioned charge reasonable (small) prices for their forced updates.

Time for VectorWorks users to wake up and stop Nemetscheck from misusing their position. 

  • Like 1
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3 hours ago, Nol Twigt said:

However the point is that Nemetscheck forces users to upgrade VectorWorks, which costs each user more than  € 1.000,-

 

As Jim said, they do not.

If they would do they would prevent older versions running in Windows too.

 

They create new Features and improve the software so users want to upgrade or get select service.

 

And if you are an OS X user and that does not work there only, than it seems to be Apple related.

You are still not forced to upgrade, you can run your permanent old license as log as you live.

You just should not upgrade OS X.

The only thing you can criticize is that other similar software seem to be pretty unimpressed by

Apples OS changes.

Edited by zoomer
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