"Framing member" vs "structural member" tools

[line-weight]

The "Structural member" tool appeared in VW2017, but when I tried it before it was full of bugs and horrible. Confirmed by a few other threads on here. I *think* that SP3 has provided fixes for most of the issues.

 

A couple of questions:

 

- Is it, in SP3, now safe to use? Or are there still significant bugs remaining?

 

- Is it supposed to replace the "framing member" tool?

 

- If not, when do I use one instead of the other?

[zoomer]

I think, at least, it is thought to replace the old column tool.

(On the other side, column tool was also updated to be level aware )

 

Not sure about the framing members.

I think it is good to have Structural Members for main construction and a

separate Framing Member Tool for "secundary" construction.

(But being compatible in their features as well as their usage, to work together in harmony)

[line-weight]

Would be good to know what the "official" answer is here.

 

I've not really used either tool up till now but would like to start using one/both of them.

 

No point getting my head around the "framing member" tool if it's destined to become redundant.

[rDesign]

Here's a quote from @Wes Gardner in another thread on this topic:

 

[bohlr]

How does one turn on the member identifier mark, "Member ID" in a 2d plan view" ? Or in 3D

I am looking for something similar to "Framing member label text"

[rDesign]

1 hour ago, bohlr said:

How does one turn on the member identifier mark, "Member ID" in a 2d plan view" ? Or in 3D

I am looking for something similar to "Framing member label text"

 

See these other threads, I'm not certain but it I doesn't sound like it is currently possible with the Structural Member:

 

[Guest Wes Gardner]

Here's the deal as I know it:

The tool has some issues

It apparently is incapable of producing a column ID

The INTENT was for it to eventually replace the "Framing Member" tool

It cannot be used with the roof/wall/floor framers

The tool is under review by the engineering team

 

[rDesign]

On 3/31/2017 at 7:56 AM, Wes Gardner said:

Here's the deal as I know it:

The tool has some issues

It apparently is incapable of producing a column ID

The INTENT was for it to eventually replace the "Framing Member" tool

It cannot be used with the roof/wall/floor framers

The tool is under review by the engineering team

 

 

Wes, thanks for the info. That's unfortunate: One step forward, two steps back... 🙁

 

I guess that we should not bother with the Structural Member tool and instead keep using the Framing Member tool? 

Edited July 1, 2020 by rDesign

[Guest Wes Gardner]

At this point, yes, the Framing Member tool will provide most of the solutions and will continue to work with the framers as it has.  However, the Structural Member tool DOES promise some very cool functionality

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Wes Gardner

[line-weight]

It's really rather misleading to present it as one of the great new features of 2017 when it sounds like the truth is it's more like kind of beta stage tool.

 

There needs to be clear guidance on which things have properly developed functionality. Especially when they seem to duplicate or overlap with other tools. Otherwise people waste a lot of time trying to get their heads around something that doesn't quite work, and it's not acceptable to find out that something doesn't work only once you're some way into trying to use it in a commercial environment.

 

There's much too much of this kind of thing in VW.

Edited April 2, 2017 by line-weight

[rDesign]

On 3/31/2017 at 7:56 AM, Wes Gardner said:

Here's the deal as I know it:

The tool has some issues

It apparently is incapable of producing a column ID

The INTENT was for it to eventually replace the "Framing Member" tool

It cannot be used with the roof/wall/floor framers

The tool is under review by the engineering team

 

 

@Wes Gardner- hopefully the engineering team is already aware of the other issues with the Structural Member tool that have been reported over in this thread. 

[nrkuhl]

The only thing I've managed to successfully use the Structural Member tool for is as a work around for making gutters.

 

The tool is incapable of producing a column, nevermind the ID (as discussed in the thread @rDesignreferenced above).

[line-weight]

So... I have been trying to work out if it's worth me starting to use the framing member and/or structural member tools more in my models.

 

I was getting confused about which one is supposed to be used in which situatin so I googled "vectorworks framing member vs structural member" and discovered this thread that I started 5 years ago.

 

So - what's the story 5 years on?

 

How much of this still applies:

 

On 3/31/2017 at 3:56 PM, Wes Gardner said:

Here's the deal as I know it:

The tool has some issues

It apparently is incapable of producing a column ID

The INTENT was for it to eventually replace the "Framing Member" tool

It cannot be used with the roof/wall/floor framers

The tool is under review by the engineering team

 

 

Is anyone from VW willing to comment?

[Tom W.]

I personally don't use either that often. Perhaps Framing Members only when I use the 'Create Joists...' command. Structural Members are good for steel framed structures like this:

 

 

But even here the Z-purlins are my own scalable hybrid symbols.

 

 

The wood framing was initially created using the 'Wall Framer...' command so they are Generic Solids.

 

[line-weight]

Thanks @Tom W.

 

Not just me finding both tools a bit limited in what they are actually useful for then.

 

Frustrating because they initially look like they can make certain things easier than building from scratch.

 

Might investigate your "scalable hybrid symbol" concept. That's just a section profile extruded by 1m and then scaled longwise, right? What's the advantage over a simple extrude - is it to do with top/plan representation?

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

is it to do with top/plan representation?

 

Basically yes. And also to be able to save it as a resource for reuse. But if you weren't concerned with the Top/Plan graphic you could save an Extrude as blue Group symbol +  would essentially be the same thing (reusable resource with length controlled in OIP) just without the 2D graphic. But I like to have the Top/Plan representation + also to be able to have different representations controlled by class.

 

Here's another example, a ridge tile this time:

 

3D:

 

Top/Plan:

 

Symbol is 1m long + instance length set in OIP, e.g. 4.22m:

[Tobias Kern]

Hi,

 

in the 3D symbol, you can also draw your own 2D geometry to represent Top/Plan graphic,

you get a hybrid symbol if both 2D and 3D geometry exists.

 

The 2D geometry (in the 2D part of the symbol) is also affected by the scaling.

… you can have the best of both worlds in one scalable symbol.

 

AutoHybrids are also possible in symbols.

 

/ / / 

 

By the way:

 

An overhauled  "Truss Engine" is part of the Public Roadmap.

https://www.vectorworks.net/en-US/public-roadmap

 

I hope this will enhance the "Structural Member" too.

… let's see what we get?

 

Greetings

Tobi

[Tom W.]

38 minutes ago, Tobias Kern said:

in the 3D symbol, you can also draw your own 2D geometry to represent Top/Plan graphic,

you get a hybrid symbol if both 2D and 3D geometry exists.

 

The 2D geometry (in the 2D part of the symbol) is also affected by the scaling.

… you can have the best of both worlds in one scalable symbol.

 

Absolutely! This is what I'm showing in the example above. But I believe @line-weight is 3D-only + doesn't use Top/Plan so not sure he'll be interested in this aspect...

[Tobias Kern]

Hi Tom,

 

greetings.

 

… sorry if I misunderstood line-weights wishes.

… I'm not native in english.

 

Greetings

Tobi

[Tom W.]

Greetings Tobi! Perhaps we can convince @line-weight of the benefits of Top/Plan...!

[Tobias Kern]

Hi Tom,

 

I also use scaled symbols like you, but I draw them: 1 x 1 x 1 cm.

(simple geometry), or 1 cm in length.

 

You can get the scaling factors into worksheets with:

 

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 102)  scaling factor X

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 103)  scaling factor Y

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 104)  scaling factor Z

 

… perfect for quantity takeoffs.

 

Greetings

Tobi

[line-weight]

Had to look up what "blue symbols" are.

 

Does it mean the object gets planted as a group rather than a symbol when inserted? So don't inherit any subsequent changes to the symbol definition itself?

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, Tobias Kern said:

By the way:

 

An overhauled  "Truss Engine" is part of the Public Roadmap.

https://www.vectorworks.net/en-US/public-roadmap

 

I hope this will enhance the "Structural Member" too.

… let's see what we get?

 

Let's hope we don't get yet another tool that partially duplicates an existing one that then gets abandoned.

[Tom W.]

10 minutes ago, Tobias Kern said:

You can get the scaling factors into worksheets with:

 

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 102)  scaling factor X

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 103)  scaling factor Y

=OBJEKTDATA(‘Objektvariable’; 104)  scaling factor Z

 

That's great info many thanks!

 

6 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Let's hope we don't get yet another tool that partially duplicates an existing one that then gets abandoned.

 

Luckily @line-weight I think the truss engine improvements relate to Spotlight so we'll be immune...

 

8 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Had to look up what "blue symbols" are.

 

Does it mean the object gets planted as a group rather than a symbol when inserted? So don't inherit any subsequent changes to the symbol definition itself?

 

Yes. It would just be a way of populating your model with 3D solids but using pre-saved resources to do it. Alternatively you could save the Extrude as a normal (black) 3D symbol + use asymmetric scaling to resize it. Then you'd have global control over the geometry/attributes via the symbol definition. 

[Tobias Kern]

Hi,

 

if you use the scaling factors for quantity takeoffs,

it doesn't matter, how the symbols are placed in 3D,

because, the axis of the symbols comes into count

and not the actual axis of VW.

 

… also interesting for QT:

 

For a faster workflow, we need a graphically based scaling (click-and-drag) of the symbols,

At the moment, we only can scale with input values.

 

Greetings from Germany

Tobi