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joey altalef

send to front/back

Question

When working on a 3D object (wireframe), the "send to front/back" option just works when on top view, it does not work on any other view. In previus versions of Vectorworks it used to work and was very usefull while working on complex 3d models.

 

In the Pic#1, the black cube was sent to the front, but as seen in the pic, part of the green cube looks like it is in front. 

In the Pic# 2, I show that in top plan, it always work, but in elevation view, the first cube that I created always will be in front, and not the one I send to the front:

 

in the pic B, the green cube was sent to the front, but in elevation, the black cube still looks like it was on front.

 

thanks

Vectorworks 2017 Sp2

1.jpg

2.jpg

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Sorry, I have a complete different opinion.

 

There should never be ANY artificial stacking order in any 3D View,

beside the geometrical order seen from current POV.

 

3D is a more real, or less abstract, mode than 2D.

There are no overlapping Volumes in reality.

Overlapping geometry always causes problems in many 3D contexts.

 

If there ever had been such a send front/back stacking in 3D in previous VW versions,

it got completely broken with 2017.

Therefore I now have extreme problems selecting Faces of Objects by Push Pull Tool.

Even if the wanted Object is in front in my current view, Faces can't be selected because

occluded Objects in the background get prioritized, until I select the wanted object

and CMD+F change its stacking order !

 

But what I vote for is a strict separation of all Orthogonal 2D Views (Front, Top, Left, Right, ...)

which VW unfortunately calls all "3D" except Top Plan View,

from all Isometric or Perspective Views.

And give these an an additional option for a "Plan" Illustration Mode like Top Plan View.

And maybe allow such an artificial stacking order there, but keep all real 3D clean from that.

 

Same applies for the Quick Tool Settings for when you change from "2D" to "3D".

You will mostly have no perspective mode in Front or Side View or keep your Wireframe Mode,

while your "real 3D" Views in Perspective and OpenGL.

 

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If you have trouble selecting things in 3D or 2D select the overlapping item and hit "J" it brings up a dialogue that lets you switch between the items and they highlight so you can choose one behind. HTH

Capture.JPG

Edited by Alan Woodwell

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What I forgot to mencion before, is why it was important (for me) the way send front/back worked in Vectorworks2010 and before.

 

When you could control which object was in front or back in an isometric view (for example), it was easier to pick/click the object you wanted to modify. Now you just have to try or fly arround the objects and find a clear view of the object you want to click. It is very helpful whe you have a lot of different objects that overlap. In previos versions of Vectorworks it worked really well.

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17 minutes ago, joey altalef said:

When you could control which object was in front or back in an isometric view (for example), it was easier to pick/click the object you wanted to modify. Now you just have to try or fly arround the objects and find a clear view of the object you want to click. It is very helpful whe you have a lot of different objects that overlap. In previos versions of Vectorworks it worked really well.

 

And that is why I always ask for an optional* Edit Mode, where Sub Selection is limited to the selected Objects only.

So I think the Problem is something else and Stacking not the solution but dangerous.

 

Yes it is tedious in VW that you are generally forced to always rotate your View to access Objects,

even just for selection. And if geometry gets crowded, view rotations may even not help and you

will also start to play with visibilities and at the ende will even need to move things away temporarily.

 

Thanks @Alan Woodwell, I know the J Option (But don't like it at all in its current state)

Previously I was used to highlight possible Selections and simply cycle through alternative 

Objects by RMB if necessary, until I accept by LMB.

 

But with Tools like Push Pull, their Sub Selection works on all reachable Objects only,

no matter what you did for a primary Selection.

And since VW 2017 you can't trust that it will grab the most near object in your current view

but prefers even occluded objects, geometrically farer away.

 

 

* optional,

to not take away direct access of all faces for faster editing for people that have not

so crowded geometries.

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I think the Front/Back command should work in all view orientations and at least in OGL renders, so added an elevation point and a like!

 

Seems two issues are important here:

 

1. View related

   •The wire frame Front/Back display of 3d objects operates as expected only in Top/Plan. But other views the wire frame does not produce Front/Back changes.  I vote yes for the wire frame to respond properly in all views, even flyovers.

   •Rendered, including hidden line, display of coincident portions of virtual objects is more problematic philosophically, especially if the attributes are dissimilar.   As pointed out by zoomer and others, coincident surfaces do not represent actual material conditions (probably exceptions, eg with fluids) so Front/Back is a display dilemma - solved in vwx by the busy "z fighting" distortion. If we accept the vwx environment as schematic, it makes sense to operate Front/Back in rendered views. If we want the rendered scene to represent material realism, Front/Back has no meaning.

   •I'm leaning schematic, so would appreciate the Front/Back command to affect display of the rendered scene.

   •This issue has appeared in past threads, so remains on the minds of user community.

 

2. Selection related

   •  In my opinion, Wire frame objects should respond to Front/Back for selection in any view orientation.

   •  I support the wish for Front/Back response for selection of objects in rendered scenes, especially OGL.

   • Fortunately, the j key often works to present the list of coincident objects and facilitate selection within the stack.

   • Unfortunately, the j key is inoperative in conjunction with some other operations.

   • Wish - Implement J key functionality in more (all?) contexts.

 

17 hours ago, zoomer said:

And give these an an additional option for a "Plan" Illustration Mode like Top Plan View.

•This is also a good idea if it can be temporarily applied to any view and render state. Allows selection, and facilitates material realism.

•But watch out -  entering or using the mode might cause an hour of rerender!  Should this function be limited to OGL?

 

-B

Edited by Benson Shaw
Duh!

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I think the Plan Illustration in VW for vertical Views is illusionary.

 

It would need real Clipping Planes, where the Top Plan View is vertically user-clipped by Layer visibility

and natural 2.5D top plan priority and appearance of buildings.

Top Plan View is a pseudo section appearance that has only 1 possible appearance for objects (cut),

while it would need additional dashed (above) and dotted (below) mode. And better scale dependent

versions of these.

For vertical views in pseudo section appearance you would need and another 2-4 elevation representations

vertically for all objects. And it will still fail if you have an object at an angle. This is endless so I think it would

need real live sections.

 

 

I think I stay with my opinion that 3D objects should not have any artificial stacking order.

For me it makes only sense for true 2D Objects in a 2D environment.

If you need 2D Elevations and Sections, draw these in a 2D environment (Top Plan) with 2D objects

and give them a stacking order as in a 2D there isn't any real depth.

 

If you prefer 3D Objects, draw them in correct 3D Space orientation and they will have their natural

stacking order automatically.

The 2D representations have to be generated by calculated sections and plugin objects containing

no 2D representations, only Geometry, but with variable detail amount according to scale.

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