to renew or not to renew (that is the question)

[PVA - Admin]

6 hours ago, Phil hunt said:

Well took the decision today not to renew my Vss been a hard decision to make but at the ripe old age of 64.....I don't think vw2018 could have offered me any more to my workflow.....I know it's difficult for a software company to disclose any any pre release titbits....I do think vectorworks should look at splitting the cost over a 12 month period for maybe the vss and indeed a new licence as the adobe setup.....maybe more companies would indeed use the upgrade system to there advantage cost.....it's been great fun being part of the forum but I don't know now if I will be able to participate now I am no longer a vss subscriber.......but if not I wish you all well and thanks again for all your help in the past.....cheers phil

3 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

I don't think there's any requirement to be a VSS subscriber to participate in these forums.... I believe they're open to everyone, even non-Vectorworks users.

 

Kevin

 

Correct, this forum is available to anyone regardless of ownership status.

 

[Phil hunt]

Great to hear that Jim.   Thanks 

[Phil hunt]

So could a 12 month subscription for a licence be an option or not.  Just a thought 

[PVA - Admin]

19 minutes ago, Phil hunt said:

So could a 12 month subscription for a licence be an option or not.  Just a thought 

 

There is a great deal of discussion surrounding expanding our payment options going on internally, I know of no details yet (not just confidential, I genuinely dont know any) but it is getting a lot of attention.

[barkest]

I just started looking at Substance Designer. As an Educator it is free and it works with c4d. Maybe VW can learn from them.

 

I got assigned a contact with a nice email and have just been invited to a webinar solely for Educators on how to use SD and an open forum for q and a's with no time limit.

 

I have had more attention from them in two weeks than I got from VW in 5+ years.

 

Sad to say that really. Maybe another discussion you can have

Edited May 19, 2017 by barkest

[michael john williams]

I go through this every year when the VSS bill comes in for 3 licences. Pity I did not date it to coincide with the release of info for the next version. Recently and or the fourth time I have now renewed more out of loyalty then anythings else.....which is crazy I know ..... but I am a loyal customer and it would be nice to get a few more rewards and benefits. 

[Tom Klaber]

On 5/19/2017 at 5:14 PM, Phil hunt said:

So could a 12 month subscription for a licence be an option or not.  Just a thought 

Damned if you do - damned if you dont.

There has been GREAT resistance to going moving to a true subscription model.

Now that I started my own firm - I see a great benefit in it - being able to purchase a license for a little while - but then let it go if it is no longer needed. 

 

With the VSS - its kind of the worst of both - you are paying a subscription and you have to pay for the software, to begin with.  

Maybe it just turns out that paying money is not fun no matter what the model.

[Kevin McAllister]

26 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

With the VSS - its kind of the worst of both - you are paying a subscription and you have to pay for the software, to begin with.  

Maybe it just turns out that paying money is not fun no matter what the model.

 

I will say, though I don't mind the current model, as the price of my VSS subscription yearly approaches what I paid for buying Vectorworks (Minicad 5) outright in 1993/94 I begin to feel weird about it all.

 

KM

[rDesign]

As a sole-practitioner, I prefer the current annual VSS payment model as opposed to the Adobe / AutoCAD monthly rental subscription model.

 

What frustrates me most about the annual Vw upgrade cycle is the number of major bugs introduced in 2017: It really felt like it was a Beta release. I didn't feel that 2017 was stable enough to use on real projects until SP2 was released, and even after SP3, there are still display refresh problems.

 

All that to say, even though I paid for a 2017 license as part of my VSS, I have yet to use it on a real project. I'm still using 2016 as it has fewer issues than 2017, in my opinion.

[line-weight]

How about a subscription model where we pay for the new release *after* VW have made it actually usable

 

I feel a bit like if I decide to renew now, it will in the hope that VW2018 will fix the bugs in VW2017 (and in the hope that the new bugs in 2018 will be less disruptive than the ones in 2017). I'm paying to have something that I've already paid for, fixed.

[barkest]

Interesting that Allegorithmic (substance designer/painter) has a model whereby you pay a monthly amount and you get all of the updates etc. and then after 8-months its your software. If you stop paying your monthly sub then it is 'banked' and if/when you start paying again its taken into account for the 8-months. You can of course purchase straight up as well if you want. After 8-months you can just stop and use the software (no more updates) or carry on paying monthly.

 

Best of both worlds?

[line-weight]

My VSS (VW Architect) is now up for renewal. Here's how the pricing looks to me - all prices including VAT.

 

Renew VSS - £632. Effectively this is the price of upgrading to 2018, if I pay now - a few months in advance, without knowing what the new version is going to give me.

 

The alternative is to let my subscription lapse, and decide whether 2018 is worth paying for once I know what it gives me, perhaps 6 months from now, once I can also get a bit of feedback from others on whether any new features actually work in practice, and once it's on to SP2 or 3. In that case I would be paying for an upgrade from 2017 to 2018, and the way the pricing worked the last time I looked into this, that would be 35% of the "new" cost, currently around £2580, making the upgrade cost around £903. More expensive, but a decision that could be based on the reality of what was on offer.

 

If I decide 2018 isn't worth it, then it would be a matter of upgrading from 2017 to 2019 a year later, at a cost of around £1290 (again this is based on how the upgrade pricing worked the last time I looked into it).

 

That's about the same as paying for two years' subscription, which makes the subscription seem probably worth it, except that I know there are sometimes special offers which could cut the cost of doing the non-subscription upgrade route substantially. The non-subscription route would also allow me to defer the payment points by about 6 months.

 

 

[line-weight]

@JimW

 

Are you able to give any clues as to how many more updates to VW2017 we should expect?

 

Looking at the update histories for 2015 and 2016, they made it to SP5 or SP6 which were released in December of each year respectively. Should we expect 2017 to follow a similar pattern?

[PVA - Admin]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

@JimW

 

Are you able to give any clues as to how many more updates to VW2017 we should expect?

 

Looking at the update histories for 2015 and 2016, they made it to SP5 or SP6 which were released in December of each year respectively. Should we expect 2017 to follow a similar pattern?

Generally sp1 addresses any immediate concerns that arise during or right after launch, sp2-sp4 are semi-scheduled regular fixes and sp5 is reserved for extending OS compatibility as far as possible before the version is no longer under support.

[line-weight]

So would it be fair to say we should get an SP4 in the next couple of months (pre 2018 release?), and then anything significant that isn't fixed at that point probably won't ever be fixed in VW2017?

 

 

 

 

[PVA - Admin]

5 minutes ago, line-weight said:

So would it be fair to say we should get an SP4 in the next couple of months (pre 2018 release?)

Yep

 

5 minutes ago, line-weight said:

and then anything significant that isn't fixed at that point probably won't ever be fixed in VW2017?

This isn't a standard, it completely depends on what the issues are and if those areas of the application are already being upgraded or replaced in the next full release.

[line-weight]

Thanks @JimW

[Phil hunt]

i wish this had been leaked on a happy Tuesday 4 months ago along with all the other items that no doubt will make the software even better.....but when it was VSS time i failed to renew after asking what may be 

improved for V2018......still i saved my money and looked like i payed the price...of not renewing......i dont see the problem with making these kind of announcements some months of the launch....studio max and form z have had these screens for years.....i get wound up that a loyal customer for 18 years are failed in this manner not to be told before hand....i know its all about the competition and all that.....but honestly i cant see it makes any difference at all....if the software is that good it should (which it is)...it should stand and fall on its own merits.....no doubt my comments will fall on deaf ears....come on VW give your loyal customers the information a little sooner please ......

 

no doubt there will be a bunch of you who disagree with my comments.......must of gotten out of the wrong side of bed today!

[Marissa Farrell]

2 hours ago, Phil hunt said:

i wish this had been leaked on a happy Tuesday 4 months ago along with all the other items that no doubt will make the software even better.....but when it was VSS time i failed to renew after asking what may be 

improved for V2018......still i saved my money and looked like i payed the price...of not renewing......i dont see the problem with making these kind of announcements some months of the launch....studio max and form z have had these screens for years.....i get wound up that a loyal customer for 18 years are failed in this manner not to be told before hand....i know its all about the competition and all that.....but honestly i cant see it makes any difference at all....if the software is that good it should (which it is)...it should stand and fall on its own merits.....no doubt my comments will fall on deaf ears....come on VW give your loyal customers the information a little sooner please ......

 

no doubt there will be a bunch of you who disagree with my comments.......must of gotten out of the wrong side of bed today!

 

Hi Phil!

 

There are a few different reasons why we can't tell you guys sooner than we do, one VERY important one is that we really want to be sure that the feature will be complete and ready for the next release. Had we told you sooner before it went through the whole development process, including testing, and then realized it wasn't in good enough shape to ship, then we would be falsely advertising the feature and there would be a chance it wouldn't even make it into the release. Trust me when I say that @JimW, myself, and many other people we work with would love to be able to share the things we are working on throughout the whole cycle, but that could hurt our reputation in the long run when things don't go as planned. We don't want to hype you guys up for something that won't be ready. 

 

Although the engineering team is VERY talented here, we still have to take some precautions when tackling a difficult task, such as multiview, to make sure you guys will have a good experience with it. 

[Phil hunt]

I understand your thoughts and well explianed ....but now as i understand your comments its been fully developed and ready to go....you said that about subdivision....but that didn't completely work with texturing but you still sold us the dream and released the product....

the point i am trying to make that after a long term customer....you still expect me to pay an inflated uprgrade cost for the 2018 version....surely there must be some kind of customer loyalty from your company for someone like me who has spent a bundle of cash with vectorworks year after year... 

[barkest]

1 hour ago, Marissa Farrell said:

and then realized it wasn't in good enough shape to ship

 

Such as Web view or Sub-D (from existing objects) etc.

 

I honestly believe the model of secrecy is rooted in the past. Honesty and openness have served other companies well. Unity, for example, explain where they are going in the future. Not just this year but their whole roadmap. Users buy in and help push them. They have constant betas on release for the community to work on (if they want) and in this way everyone is involved in the R & D cycle.

 

A closed system with an annual release = modules that don't always work or don't work in a way that serves users needs as no input was asked for. 

 

Even Maxon has begun to evolve and that's saying something.

 

[twk]

1 hour ago, Marissa Farrell said:

We don't want to hype you guys up for something that won't be ready

 

This is true, but similar to what others have mentioned, the 'hyping' still happens with release videos, and the actual use-case of the tools don't reflect the marketing (ie Import C4D Textures).

 

I would love to have the 'hype' surrounding a roadmap at least. At least we can see 'briefly' what is in the pipeline. Have a look at VRAYforC4D's release notes. (At the bottom is a good example of the kind of roadmap that is enough).

http://www.vrayforc4d.net/v-rayforc4d-3-4-released/

 

disclaimer, this is no shot at Vectorworks as a product, I gladly use it and bend it to it's breaking point happily (ie productively).

[barkest]

Sorry for using Unity as an example but I am just getting into it and its a breath of fresh air. They introduced a subscription model and with it they were able to change their philosophy

 

https://blogs.unity3d.com/2017/06/27/unite-europe-2017-keynote-recap-connecting-creating-and-the-future-of-unity/

 

From their keynote this year. Start at 7m:30s and run for 1 min.

 

[zoomer]

I too have to admit that I have a different view of how new features are

complete and ready to be released.

 

Is it really a problem to say we are working on this, this and that for the next

release, but there is no guarantee that all will be included in that release in

case we are running into unforeseeable problems ?

Or this feature will not come before SP X.

[RussU]

9 minutes ago, barkest said:

Start at 7m:30s and run for 1 min.

That makes a lot of sense.