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BIM | Goodbye Design Layers - Hello Super Layer


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I think it is time that we put some serious thought into moving on from Design Layers - they are unnatural and problematic when constructing a BIM model.  Obviously, we would need to keep design layers for traditional delivery, so we can not lose them entirely.  So my proposal is that if you are building and information model - you create or desi BIM super layer.  This is where the whole model will be constructed.  Single Layer Project.

 

So essentially we would need to think about what new functionality we would need to build an information model on a single layer.  

 

I think as far as file organization we already have most of what we need. - Stories and levels cover all of the Z control you need.  Then, without the design layer visibility issues, you can easily have objects span multiple stories. Saved Views will then step into fill the visual control void.  Rather than controlling what design layers are on - they will simply control classes and where the cut plane is - and you will be able to bounce between plans that way.  Classes might need a little bump in functionality - maybe having "Class Sets" to easily turn off items that get in the way - but we more or less have that now with the nesting. 

 

As far as I can tell, the only thing you really need is real plan-section cuts.  Right now VW just flips the design layer into Plan view and all objects switch to their top plan view.  Works OK - but this is not a true plan cut.  Even with AutoHybrid symbols - you have to decide where the cut is.  Windows are always cut, regardless of where they are in the wall.  In this new Super Layer future - VW would need to generate the plan from a true cut.  This seems possible.  Section cuts do a pretty good job of showing wall components.  Things like doors and windows will need to smart where if they are cut - they change to their top plan mode - if they are below or above they switch to those modes.  Seems doable.

 

As far as file set up, plan sheets and saved views would be auto generated at a default 4' above any "Principle Story Level" (or something like that) - that would be able to be modified later.  All objects could be associated with a story levels (Multiple if need be) so you can turn off levels to speed things up if need be - like a secondary class system. You would still have other design layers.  So if you are drafting traditionally - no worries - business as usual.  If you building an information Model - you can use these layers trace paper overlays or use them as the places where accessory drawings like 2D details are stored.

 

The more I think about this - the more it seems like BIM delivery requires sunsetting the design layer as the principal file organization.  Love to hear your thoughts. 


 

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Yes, World Levels sounds cool :)

 

I mean that I can create Levels outside of Stories, like for facade panels,

from the 1st Floor Z and still being able to access these from the 4th Story,

not just from the Stories above and below.

 

 

Default Level Linking.

 

You can assign a Wall Style to use a top height of "bottom of slab - story above".

To make that Wall Style work on anyStory, there has to be a "bottom of slab" Level in any Story.

So these kind Levels are "Default Levels" because they appear in every story.

And in most cases these levels will have the same height level from the Story.

(Like bottom of Windows, Doors heights, finish floor packages, ....)

 

And when your client says, no, we will no sell Stories 23-89 no more as offices but as server farms

and we now need all cables in the floor, the finish floor will now be 42 cm instead of 18 cm.

You will prefer to change all these Levels at once and not one by one in the Default Levels Tab because

you can - if these are "Linked" into Stories.

(And you will be able to unlink Default Story Levels for Story 3, 17 and 93 because there will be special

cases with different heights and assign custom values. Until you client comes again with funny changes

and you need to relink these again.

You can as it is now but that is no user interface if you can't recognize which was default and which was

a custom Level)

 

 

And so obviously there could be

Story Styles.

 

We have Styles for everything, Walls, Slab, Windows, ... and that is fine, except for Stories.

Story Styles could include there set of Default Levels

(which may also use some linked from Default Level Palette)

and you would assign Styles to Stories and easily replace if needed.

 

 

 

Also I would throw out all that Auto Layer Creation from Levels.

It is far easier to create a set of "story" Layers, duplicate these in Layer Palette and assign Stories to them.

It can stay there as an option of course but currently they make the System hard to understand by having

Duplicates of default Levels, creating Layers, some not.

As these Layers heights from Levels are also not linked from default levels.

 

And a UI for Level Assignment to parts that is capable to make choice of more than 3 Stories Levels amount

easy accessible. Currently it is quite hard to even select between 3xLevels (below/Layer/above)

 

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I am on board - all of that sounds like sound upgrades.

 

Except:

35 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

Also I would throw out all that Auto Layer Creation from Levels.

It is far easier to create a set of "story" Layers, duplicate these in Layer Palette and assign Stories to them.

 

 
1

No more design layers!

Edited by Tom Klaber
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Could be Stories able to switch on/off and Layers for legacy only.

I'm open for changes.

 

I try to keep things simple, I try to make it work with one Layer per Story. There are also Levels and Classes.

It instantly gets tedious for visibility switching when you need more than one Layer per Story to separate

building areas or engineers stuff.

While it is ok for me to have several separate Layers in 1st floor, as there happens a lot.

 

But Layers for half of the Levels per Story - no.

Edited by zoomer
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BTW 1

 

Before Layers go - we have to get rid of Screen Plane ....

 

BTW 2

 

That whole Story issue, wasn't any issue in my pre-VW times, as I had no Stories and Levels.

But I had a "Fence" Tool and a "stretch Fence" Command to edit all Objects at once.

Simply draw the marquee around certain parts of one or more Stories and move it up or down

to stretch things.

Same as I work in 3D Polygon Apps. Select all Objects, go to Point Mode, Subselect Points

and move as you like ....

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Well not to break up your layerless bro-mance here but....  O.o

 

1. Not everyone who uses VW is an architect and not everyone makes buildings with stories (some of us don't even work with classes *shock *horror)

 

2. You can use the current iteration of VW and just choose not use use layers (just the one default Design Layer 01 only)

 

3. No screen plane..?  Zoomer I'm going to pretend  like you didn't just say that....:)

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26 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

Well not to break up your layerless bro-mance here but....  O.o

 

1. Not everyone who uses VW is an architect and not everyone makes buildings with stories (some of us don't even work with classes *shock *horror)

 

2. You can use the current iteration of VW and just choose not use use layers (just the one default Design Layer 01 only)

 

3. No screen plane..?  Zoomer I'm going to pretend  like you didn't just say that....:)

 

 

1) That is the beauty of my suggestion of super layers.  If you want to use the current layer system - go ahead.

 

2) Yes - you can put everything on one layer now - but we are missing capabilities that would make that functional.  When I was thinking through it - I found that we were closer than I first felt - but the live plan cut and the additional organizational aspects are a must before that would be at all workable.

 

3) Don't bundle me with Zoomer - you can have your screen plane.  

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33 minutes ago, JimW said:

If I started a band that was Vectorworks themed, I would name it "Layerless Bromance."

 

Yes, it's time.

Which could also play the intro for the Podcast Series :)

 

As Pat has already 7 years of vacancy.

Great Podcast btw.

 

 

34 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

3. No screen plane..?  Zoomer I'm going to pretend  like you didn't just say that....:)

 

You can call it as you want :)

 

Screen Plane happens in so many Tools where it is in reality a XY Plane with a granted Z of 0.00 in position and range.

Which would be very fine in itself.

If those elements would behave like XY instead of SP, I could copy them out of their Object Edit Modes and re-use them

somewhere else, without the need to edit them, in a quite strange fashion.

Screen Plane objects are these special things, funny behaving in any other view rotation than that on which they were

once created. I think these are legacy and no more needed as a helper to draw anything 3D.

 

Screen Plane in a real meaning is only really needed to draw a frame of a potential Viewport, until it is created.

So it could just be a Command to Create Viewport like :

 

VW :

A new Viewport ? You are welcome.

Any wishes about a potential crop ?

Do you want

a) drawing window border,

b) should I let you draw a marquee, or

c) do you want to draw any wired 2D shape on the back of your monitor glass pane ?

c) !!!

Oh wait, I will hold the working plane for you ....

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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17 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Screen Plane happens in so many Tools where it is in reality a XY Plane with a granted Z of 0.00 in position and range.

Which would be very fine in itself.

If those elements would behave like XY instead of SP, I could copy them out of their Object Edit Modes and re-use them

somewhere else, without the need to edit them, in a quite strange fashion.

Screen Plane objects are these special things, funny behaving in any other view rotation than that on which they were

once created. I think these are legacy and no more needed as a helper to draw anything 3D.

 

Screen Plane in a real meaning is only really needed to draw a frame of a potential Viewport, until it is created.

So it could just be a Command to Create Viewport like :

 

I don't think the issue here is screen plane.... its because Screen Plane / Layer Plane is a very poor workaround to show 2d objects in 3d space. If  they had gone the direction of truly 3d objects (eg. curves in Rhino) there would be far less issues. Ironically there used to be a NURBS Circle tool which created true 3d circles...... I won't give up screen plane until there's proper snapping in orthogonal views though I do agree copy/paste is a mess in the situations you describe. Perhaps the whole notion of multiple co-ordinate systems for container objects is what needs to be addressed.

 

KM

 

 

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Still don't get exactly Tom's point about Layers.

What is missing or why not use them in BIM at all or how far.

 

I am a real fan of the Layer+Class System for Model Navigation and Organisation.

For me there could even be a third or further dimensions in special cases that I can

keep 1 Layer only per Story. (Structural vs non structural, .... )

But so far it works great for me as it is.

 

I think one of the things that limit you, Objects across Stories,

Could be eliminated by things the "Show on all relevant Stories" known from somewhere else

which allows objects being displayed in any Story's Plans as long as they happen there,

to not need duplicates anymore.

 

And I am a fan of true horizontal sections too. Which need the ability to show objects below

in a dotted line and objects above the cut level in a dashed line style.

And so follows the wish for a scale dependent appearance in detailing.

And of course it should update all plans nearly in realtime and not matter if you work in 3D Model,

one of the Plans or Worksheets.

Edited by zoomer
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2 hours ago, zoomer said:

And I am a fan of true horizontal sections too. Which need the ability to show objects below

in a dotted line and objects above the cut level in a dashed line style.

 

Yes definitely.

The other thing I would love is the ability to look at a specific symbol instead of layer(s) in a sheet layer viewport (eg. a way to look at component). I think this would solve a lot of detailing issues.

 

KM

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Design Layers work well in 2D drawings because they assume only one view - Plan or Elevation.  You can turn things on or off in that view to morph it from a plan to an RCP, or Electrical plan - and that works well because it is all the same view. 

 

The only reason we use Design layers for BIM, as far as I can tell is that of the way Vectorworks uses its nifty Top/Plan trick to generate plans rather than cutting true plan sections.  You do not really use design layers for anything else.  

 

So all the objects that span multiple stories, and there are lots of them cause problems.  You either have to artificially break them up or artificially duplicate them to hold your set together - and both of those are untenable in the long run.  A well working BIM program is not going to ask you to please duplicate this object 8 times so it shows up on the relevant plan, but make sure that 7 of the 8 have the "Do not schedule" box checked, and that they are all classed separately so you can shut them off when you are doing 3D work, but turn them on when you are in Plan mode.  

 

Then there are objects that could go in 2 places.  If I have joists with a floor on top and a ceiling below with flush mounted lights - is it part of the story above or the story below - does it need its own layer? (probably).

 

All of this comes from the fact we are putting a layer (no pun) of organization on the BIM model that is unneeded and does not quite fit. They are a legacy workflow tool that we need to have the ability to move on from.   Again - we can't until a few of the capabilities mentioned above are available, but if we don't - VW is going to be an ever growing list of workarounds.

 

 

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Oh, I mixed up Design/Layers.

 

I thought you want to get rid of Layers System.

You want to get rid of Design Layers.

 

Design Layers are used to model and manipulate geometry.

I need these with Classes and Layers for 3D work.

(Even fine for BIM in my case)

 

I think what you really want to get rid of are Sheet Layers and Viewports !

They can stay but should be for Sheet Layout only.

(which gets less and less important)

 

And you want a Super Layer which sits between current Design Layers and Sheet Layers for BIM.

With true horizontal or vertical Sections.

In which you work freely like in current Design Layers

Not dead viewports that need to be updated. No more Top Plan View Fake.

No more need for elements on the same Layer to be able to interact with each other.

(Elevator wall sits on Story 1 and reaches until the roof but you include a door in Story 27)

 

Layers for a bit of visibility control only,

Super Layers per Stories that act like View Depth Clippings with front/rear plane, like saved Clip Cubes

to separate the BIM Model for Stories, Building Parts or other ordering.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Oh, I mixed up Design/Layers.

 

I thought you want to get rid of Layers System.

You want to get rid of Design Layers.

 

Design Layers are used to model and manipulate geometry.

I need these with Classes and Layers for 3D work.

(Even fine for BIM in my case)

 

I think what you really want to get rid of are Sheet Layers and Viewports !

They can stay but should be for Sheet Layout only.

(which gets less and less important)

 

And you want a Super Layer which sits between current Design Layers and Sheet Layers for BIM.

With true horizontal or vertical Sections.

In which you work freely like in current Design Layers

Not dead viewports that need to be updated. No more Top Plan View Fake.

No more need for elements on the same Layer to be able to interact with each other.

(Elevator wall sits on Story 1 and reaches until the roof but you include a door in Story 27)

 

Layers for a bit of visibility control only,

Super Layers per Stories that act like View Depth Clippings with front/rear plane, like saved Clip Cubes

to separate the BIM Model for Stories, Building Parts or other ordering.

 

 

 
 

....

Not quite.  I like some of those ideas - but that is missing the point.  It's Design Layers that are no good for BIM.  

I feel like Dolores questioning the nature of my reality.  Design Layers is what this world is built on - but I just know there is a greater world out there somewhere.

 

I am going to try one more time:

 

As we know - design layers are where objects live.  An object can not be on two layers at once.  This is fine when you are drawing uncoordinated plans - but this becomes a BIG problem when you are trying to use your drawings to automate schedules or produce 3D drawings because in reality, building components do not live in only one place.  Objects span stories.

 

For example:

If I have a double height space with windows; unless those windows happen to be wholly below or above the story split - I have to model them all twice - but make sure that the duplicates are not being scheduled, and make sure they are classed differently so they do not show up in 3D.  I also have to choose if my wall is going to be a two-story wall, and then duplicate that wall on the story above - again classed seperately because it should only show up in plan - Or I need to artificially break the wall - which will cause all sorts of texturing and rendering problems.   Then if there are changes - I have to make all the changes twice.  

 

I do not know how you could look at that workflow and not think that it represents a huge problem.  Are there intermediate steps we could take to help with these issues - yes.  The "Show on Layer" control will help, but it is still a stop gap measure.  The whole point of an information model is you build it in the computer like you would in the real world and that model is what you see in the documentation.  These "Show on Layer" ideas - while better than what we have now - divorce the model from the drawings - which will cause errors.  

 

 

 

 

 

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Sounds to me like you are after a hierarchical object manager system like Cinema 4D - have you ever used that program?  You can organize things and group (null) them together - basically organize it any way you want, but it is not a (design) layers system.  Stacking order doesn't mean anything as x,y,z dictate what goes where, as in the real world.  "Layers" in cinema are more like Classes in VW where you can use them to control visibility (though not attributes). I prefer working this way as I can see the whole job as a list and 3d at the same time.

 

Is this not how Revit works?

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Tom Klaber, I recognise all the issues you describe. I am really struggling with how to deal with this stuff as I try to set up my drawings in a more BIM-like way.

 

I'm not sure if getting rid of layers is the solution. Maybe it is.

 

To me the most obvious thing that's needed is floorplan generation that's based on a cutting plane through the actual geometry, not the current mess that is Top/Plan view which really just generates a plan made up of limited-intelligence 2d symbols. I started a thread on this a little while back:

 

For architectural work, I think layers can still be useful, just because buildings are generally organised into floor levels, and even if just for ease of editing, it's useful to be able to switch individual floor levels on or off.

 

For elements that span stories, it can be up to the user which layer they put them on. If I have a double height space I can put the double-height walls and the windows it contains on the lower floor layer, even though they also need to show up on the floorplan for the next level up. This is only a problem at the moment because of the way the plan is generated - VW's top/plan view isn't clever enough to know they need to show on the story above. But if we have a more intelligent floorplan generation, one that is based on slicing the geometry, it doesn't need to care which layer anything's on. It just needs to know its position in space.

 

At the moment the best solution I can find to generate my floorplans is a messy arrangement with two cropped viewports on top of each other. One shows the stuff that Top/Plan view manages to show correctly, the other is a horizontal section sliced through the actual 3D geometry to show the bits Top/Plan can't do. They have to be cropped into funny shapes around each other and it still needs some cosmetic patching up to make a decent floorplan. On some floors, with simple layout and not much happening in section, I can do nearly all in top/plan view. On other floors (for example loft spaces) top/plan is virtually useless and nearly everything has to be from a horizontal section. I have been using autohybrids too, to increase what Top/Plan can show correctly but am in the process of trying to work out if I can abandon them completely because of the many limitations they have which conspire to make organising or editing anything of complexity a bit of a nightmare.

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54 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

For example:

If I have a double height space with windows; unless those windows happen to be wholly below or above the story split - I have to model them all twice - but make sure that the duplicates are not being scheduled, and make sure they are classed differently so they do not show up in 3D.

 

That isn't a big issue (in an other App).

As you say to the object on which Layer it has to appear. Not the Layer show its objects.

The standard case is something like show on the Layer it is created, like VW works.

The option case is show on all relevant Layers.

So a 3 Story height Wall will automatically show in the Layer where it was created but also

show in the 2 Layers (or Stories above). And of course you can insert doors and windows

to it in these other Layers.

So also you Window spanning over 2 Stories will automatically appear in its own Layer

and the Layer above and still behave like a single window in your worksheets..

 

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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15 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

For architectural work, I think layers can still be useful, just because buildings are generally organised into floor levels, and even if just for ease of editing, it's useful to be able to switch individual floor levels on or off.

 

 

2

I think you said the answer right there:  Levels become the new layers.  A model is just built in "Design Space" and you use stories and levels to classify the objects for visibility control.  Objects like furniture can be associated with a level and turned off if need be.  Objects could be associated with multiple levels (automatically with overrides).  
 

16 minutes ago, line-weight said:

At the moment the best solution I can find to generate my floorplans is a messy arrangement with two cropped viewports on top of each other. One shows the stuff that Top/Plan view manages to show correctly, the other is a horizontal section sliced through the actual 3D geometry to show the bits Top/Plan can't do. They have to be cropped into funny shapes around each other and it still needs some cosmetic patching up to make a decent floorplan. On some floors, with simple layout and not much happening in section, I can do nearly all in top/plan view. On other floors (for example loft spaces) top/plan is virtually useless and nearly everything has to be from a horizontal section. I have been using autohybrids too, to increase what Top/Plan can show correctly but am in the process of trying to work out if I can abandon them completely because of the many limitations they have which conspire to make organising or editing anything of complexity a bit of a nightmare.

3

That sounds terrible and unstainable. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, line-weight said:

But if we have a more intelligent floorplan generation, one that is based on slicing the geometry, it doesn't need to care which layer anything's on. It just needs to know its position in space.

 

As I have been thinking through this - I really think that this intelligent floor plan is the only thing holding VW back.  Once you get that - I think others will have the epiphany too.  I would put good money on the fact that if we had live plan section and level control AND layers - almost all the BIM modelers would abandon layers.  You could still use them if you want - but few if anybody wood. 

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From a outside perspective (eg. non-architecture) it sounds like all of these improvements need to be made to the Stories system, so you can place and control a whole series of stories on a single layer. Layers are essential for many workflows outside of architecture. I think of them as 3d containers not flat planes. Because I place an entire project into one file they are a necessity - mostly to simplify creating drawings from viewports on sheet layers.

 

Kevin

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27 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

 

 

As I have been thinking through this - I really think that this intelligent floor plan is the only thing holding VW back.  Once you get that - I think others will have the epiphany too.  I would put good money on the fact that if we had live plan section and level control AND layers - almost all the BIM modelers would abandon layers.  You could still use them if you want - but few if anybody wood. 

 

It's not the only thing but I certainly agree it's the main thing holding VW back, in terms of being properly usable for 3d BIM.

 

I get the impression many are in some kind of denial about whether the existing system, using top/plan view, actually works, once you are trying to generate info from a 3d model. I'm not sure why this is. Is it because they are designing totally different types of buildings than I am? Am I too fussy about my floorplans actually being readable? Is there something that I'm missing?

 

I went to a VW BIM day here in London a little while ago. Some demonstration projects were presented. One was called "The Cube". Why was it a cube? Because the reality is that the current system comes apart at the seams as soon as you try and generate floorplans from anything that's not basically rectilinear, or complex in some other way, in section!

Edited by line-weight
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27 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

 

I think you said the answer right there:  Levels become the new layers.  A model is just built in "Design Space" and you use stories and levels to classify the objects for visibility control.  Objects like furniture can be associated with a level and turned off if need be.  Objects could be associated with multiple levels (automatically with overrides). 

 

I don't think layers need to be done away with or renamed as "levels" or anything. People can use them as they wish.

 

The key is sorting out how floorplans are generated.

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