Flyover tool should act like zoom and pan, and leave the selection intact

[grant_PD]

Very difficult to chamfer edges of solids or do other 3d modelling if one looses the selection upon flyover. 

[PVA - Jim]

Would you agree with the sentiment here? 

 

This is one of the topics I've had on my shortlist for a comprehensive wishlist submission.

[Kevin McAllister]

Yup, I've said it multiple times - navigation should't be managed by tools.....

 

KM

[zoomer]

^ beside the fact that I will always use a full Num Block keyboard,

because I simply prefer it for numeric input,

and would use an external or other options if Apple will prevent Num Blocks one time.

 

Can't imagine to use VW without Num Block View Rotation on the other hand.

I also think that is tricky and you often do not know if it is currently save to use navigation

numbers or you will destroy any numeric input.

But if VW finds any other or even better method - fine.

 

As long as substantial functions in VW like View Navigation rely on a MMB,

standard Scroll Wheel Mouses are unusable to me for VW CAD.

I had to skip my former Mouses and buy some with either having explicit MMB, special

scroll wheels that allow a comfortable MMB or have extra buttons that can have a MMB

applied to it.

I too would like to see a Mode where VW works with e.g. a Apple Magic Mouse or Track Pads

only, as the Magic Mouse is wonderful everywhere* except VW.

 

*Not really as it isn't sufficient in C4D or Modo either,m although not as essential as in VW.

So I doubt a bit if that is really realistic.

Lets see.

 

1 hour ago, grant_PD said:

Very difficult to chamfer edges of solids or do other 3d modelling if one looses the selection upon flyover. 

 

For me it works well on OS X keyboard+mouse with the :

temporary Fly Over by CTRL+MMB and

temporary Pan by either MMB or SPACEBAR.

 

(And of course with a 3DConnection 3D Tool)

 

Without loosing my Selected Edges.

Edited November 14, 2016 by zoomer

[PVA - Jim]

I, too, fear the numpad will go the way of the ethernet port and the SD card slot. It was almost inevitable... but I'll still miss it.

The separation of views from tools however goes even deeper, as newer interface tools become more widely available (for instance, using a touchpad is no longer an exercise in arthritis as it was in their early days and touchscreens are maturing and becoming the defacto system of control in more and more devices) it starts to leave our interface in the dust. Requiring that our users seek out a mouse with a clickable middle mouse button as well as a keyboard with a numpad when many Macs don't come standard with them any longer is relatively acceptable for the time being, but going forward I think it will be seen as a serious limitation.

 

This of course has to be balanced against spending development time making Vectorworks compatible with hardware that isn't widely used, but separating the view/tool convention I think is the first step in making this easier. Separating Tools from Views for instance, would not REDUCE the ability of the mouse/keyboard/numpad combo, just unlock the potential for improved interface systems as they come along.

[zoomer]

Another thing is that I use all my other 3D Apps in a 4 Window Top/Front/Left/Iso View.

Where View changes are far less needed anyway.

(I got used to VW behavior after 3 years but think it is less productive that way, especially

the needed Iso rotation adjustment)

 

From an ergonomic stand point, View Adjustments are "hard" or Primary Actions,

so belong to LMB like dragging or Pulling an Object.

While I agree secondary actions like Selections may use other MBs.

(So I vote for ALT+MMB = Fly Over)

 

Magic Mouse Scrolling works so smoothly anywhere except in (Although nearly MMB free) 3D Apps.

Edit :

Until I realized I can adjust scroll speed settings in any 3D App - works great.

Doesn't help much as Cursor Speed adjustments options aren't fast enough and need to be able to set

per App individually. Maybe "Better Touch Pad" or similar Apps would help.

 

[Christian Fekete]

My frustration has to do with not being able to leave the orbit tool and have the object selected, same with zoom. Also, since i don't have a num pad, I can't access the various views that the numpad directs to. Also, frustrating

[zoomer]

When I worked on my Mac Book I always used an external USB Num Block.

I have even a wireless one that I could stick to a wireless Apple keyboard, if I ever

switch to the wireless Num Block-less keyboard one time.

 

I couldn't input numerical values for CAD from the standard keyboard row.

And I couldn't live without the Num Block 1, 3, 7, 8 Isometric keys.

And I couldn't live without the middle mouse button + CTRL to orbit or scroll wheel to zoom.

[PVA - Jim]

If I didn't mention before (was going through the wishes today and making sure the most popular ones were submitted) You can use Ctrl in combination with pressing and holding the middle mouse button / scroll wheel to activate Flyover temporarily, similarly to the boomerang Pan mode, while still maintaining your selection.

This can not be done with a trackpad or certain mice that do not have clickable scroll wheels or middle mouse buttons. I am not sure if Apple's Magic Mouse can do this at all. (It's a little too flat for me, I've never used it much.)

[Kevin McAllister]

41 minutes ago, JimW said:

This can not be done with a trackpad or certain mice that do not have clickable scroll wheels or middle mouse buttons. I am not sure if Apple's Magic Mouse can do this at all. (It's a little too flat for me, I've never used it much.)

 

Can't be done with a Magic Mouse.

 

(Navigation shouldn't be tools or be linked to a specific type of navigation device (eg. three button mouse) .... my Magic Mouse works just fine for navigations in other applications  )

 

KM

[PVA - Jim]

18 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

Can't be done with a Magic Mouse.

 

(Navigation shouldn't be tools or be linked to a specific type of navigation device (eg. three button mouse) .... my Magic Mouse works just fine for navigations in other applications  )

 

KM

 

Just found out there is a task on this in testing (not approved, its in an experimental stage). Apparently the Multi Touch trackpads and Magic Mice on Macs functionally take input the same way, if we implement things for one they would be directly translatable to the other. (Three fingers to pan, two finger press/hold to invoke temporary flyover etc) I will tack this thread onto that task.

[Kevin McAllister]

Thanks Jim!

KM

[zoomer]

As we are on the wish list,

I would like to extend that screen control+navigation issue to the coming touch+pen interfaces

that are coming more and more. If VW will think about graphical and functional UI improvements,

in what way could the UI support these coming input devices (Surface Studio, Wacom, Dell Canvas)

and what is needed to even profit from these.

 

Surface dial for view rotation/zoom and pan by mouse, using your old plastic ruler on a touch screen,

and those things.

Edited January 11, 2017 by zoomer

[PVA - Jim]

Just now, zoomer said:

As we are on the wish list,

I would like to extend that screen control+navigation issue to the coming touch+pen interfaces

that are coming more and more. If VW will think about graphical and functional UI improvements,

in what way could the UI support these coming input devices (Surface Studio, Wacom, Dell Canvas)

and what is needed to even profit from these.

 

It's on Engineering's radar for sure. There's still a lot of questions about what kinds of devices will be common and how we should implement them when our UI has for so long been traditionally keyboard/mouse centric, but rest assured a lot of thought is going into modern input technology here.

[zoomer]

I am really looking forward to it, input technologies coming + software answers.

Currently I doubt if you could even work with VW, as it is, on these touch devices.

 

I see problems when doing so, but every one using a Surface Pro or Book seems

to try its CAD/CAM/3D Software on it and puts a video on YouTube.

And I can hardly hold myself from testing such a device.

The only thing that I wait for is USB/C including Thunderbolt currently missing

on all Surface devices.

[Tom Klaber]

 

On 1/11/2017 at 2:27 PM, Kevin McAllister said:

 

Can't be done with a Magic Mouse.

 

(Navigation shouldn't be tools or be linked to a specific type of navigation device (eg. three button mouse) .... my Magic Mouse works just fine for navigations in other applications  )

 

KM

 

 

Magic mouse is a more specific type of navigation device than the ubiquitous 3 button mouse which comes in 100s if not 1000s of variations and pricepoints.  

[PVA - Jim]

5 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

 

 

Magic mouse is a more specific type of navigation device than the ubiquitous 3 button mouse which comes in 100s if not 1000s of variations and pricepoints.  

 

The main issue here is that on the Mac side, this is the default mouse that comes bundled with iMacs and Mac Pros I believe. With 60% of our userbase perferring Macs, this has to be taken into consideration moreso than a third party input device would.

I personally just buy a logitech and am done with it, but I can understand the preference of those who take advantage of the MMs additional capabilities.

[zoomer]

Not beging dependent from a middle mouse click for one single but most important feature in VW

would help 98 of these 100 of available 2 buttons+scroll wheel mouses too.

Considered which are currently really working with Sierra, as some of the older Options that worked

somehow ok, meanwhile diminished.

 

Beside 3D and CAD the Magic Mouse is perfect. So I would like to use it everywhere.

Not just VW with MMB need, unfortunately it isn't a) optimal in 3D Apps with its too fast scroll behavior,

even when reducing zoom speed individually b) the possible cursor speed is too slow for me while

not precise enough by its acceleration.

[Kevin McAllister]

1 hour ago, Tom Klaber said:

 

 

Magic mouse is a more specific type of navigation device than the ubiquitous 3 button mouse which comes in 100s if not 1000s of variations and pricepoints.  

 

I would argue that the third button dependence for one feature is actually the issue here as Zoomer says. Two buttons was a long time standard that is slowly being replaced by touch......  remember that the majority of VW users are Mac based....

 

Kevin

[Tom Klaber]

1 hour ago, JimW said:

 

The main issue here is that on the Mac side, this is the default mouse that comes bundled with iMacs and Mac Pros I believe. With 60% of our userbase perferring Macs, this has to be taken into consideration moreso than a third party input device would.

I personally just buy a logitech and am done with it, but I can understand the preference of those who take advantage of the MMs additional capabilities.

 

That's true, but we are all mac here, and only about a 1/3rd of the mac users draft with a magic mouse.  My previous office only 1 out of the 12 drafted with a magic mouse.  I know that is anicdotal, but I would still think even though Mac is 60% of users, magic mouse users are much lower.

[PVA - Jim]

All wishes go in with enough support, no worries, this isn't bumping anything else OFF the list.

[Kevin McAllister]

Just now, Tom Klaber said:

That's true, but we are all mac here, and only about a 1/3rd of the mac users draft with a magic mouse.  My previous office only 1 out of the 12 drafted with a magic mouse.  I know that is anicdotal, but I would still think even though Mac is 60% of users, magic mouse users are much lower.

 

True. But when I'm travelling I often draft using the trackpad, which also doesn't allow for the third button.......

 

KM

[Tom Klaber]

Just now, Kevin McAllister said:

 

I would argue that the third button dependence for one feature is actually the issue here as Zoomer says. Two buttons was a long time standard that is slowly being replaced by touch......  remember that the majority of VW users are Mac based....

 

Kevin

 

It is not dependence, as there are a verity of other ways access the feature.  I am mac based, too.  Mac based does not mean magic mouse.  Touch is great for some things - precision drafting is not one of them.

[Kevin McAllister]

1 minute ago, Tom Klaber said:

It is not dependence, as there are a verity of other ways access the feature.

 

There actually aren't. The third button is the only way to access the boomerang mode flyover tool.

 

KM

[Tom Klaber]

2 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

True. But when I'm travelling I often draft using the trackpad, which also doesn't allow for the third button.......

 

KM

 

 

The only thing worse than drafting on a magic mouse is drafting on a track pad .

 

I guess I am confused on what is being asked for then.  I might be arguing for no reason.  I guess it could be changed to right+left button rather than middle button, but that probably does not help on the trackpad either.  Obviously, losing the selection when flying over is no good - but why that means we all hate on the middle button is where I got lost.

 

[PVA - Jim]

Currently, even if you add a function for middle click on a trackpad (mac or windows) or on the Magic Mouse, which you can do in a number of ways, Vectorworks will not acknowledge that when it comes to the boomerang-mode flyover that you get with pressing and holding the middle mouse wheel and CTRL. That's the key item you lack with the MM or any trackpad as far as Vectorworks is concerned.

 

This view change mode is not manually mappable in the workspace editor, it is one of the hard coded controls.