Doors (and windows) are parametricly incorrect

[P Retondo]

I've attached a file that shows the difference between the way VW models a panel door and the way it is actually constructed.  These differences matter.  Please consider re-working this PIO, along with a multitude of other PIOs which need consultation with real-world architects and manufacturers.

Door unrealistic.pdf

[CipesDesign]

I agree. Moreover, watch what happens when you apply a wood grain texture to these objects (also true of cabinets). It's simply wrong.

 

[Jonathan Pickup]

Hi Pete,

I know it is not really what you wanted, and I know it is a bit of a hassle, but you can create the door you want is a 3D object and use that as a custom leaf.

 

[P Retondo]

Peter and Jonathan, thanks - the custom leaf is also incorrect, as you probably know, and the parameters can't be adjusted, so - right!  Not the answer.  And I agree completely about the grain direction issue, the only way to model a door or window correctly is to construct it from scratch and place it in a cased opening.  Not sure if Windoor can handle these things, I used to have it, but didn't keep up.

 

PS:  NNA, it would help if these parametric objects, when ungrouped, would break down into individual extrusions so that it would be easier to construct an object from scratch starting from your stock object.  As it is, we don't have logical "pieces" after ungrouping.

Edited November 9, 2016 by P Retondo

[Tom Klaber]

We need something like the Family Editor - where we can build our own parametric doors from scratch.  I know you can do it in Marrionett- but that is not really a functional answer.  Anybody needs to be able to sit down and model the door they want - slap on some control dimensions to teach the door how to resize - and then be able use it like any other door.  

As we get more into the BIM world there is ever increasing demand that the BIM object be wholly correct.  Earlier - we would put in a door that resembles the door we want - and fill in the details in the types, details, and schedules - now there is a pressure that the door is 100% right in the model... WHICH means we are never going to get what we want through the Door Settings - there will always be something custom that we will not be able to show.

[Andy Broomell]

On 11/9/2016 at 9:41 AM, P Retondo said:

PS:  NNA, it would help if these parametric objects, when ungrouped, would break down into individual extrusions so that it would be easier to construct an object from scratch starting from your stock object.  As it is, we don't have logical "pieces" after ungrouping.

 

This should currently be possible by selecting the door and ungrouping it. If not that, then perhaps Convert to Group. Both seem to work for me with a few doors I'm trying.

[Andy Broomell]

Oh I think I know what you mean now - individual extrudes for what would be individual pieces of wood, rather than single extrudes that turn corners, have holes in them, etc. I feel like this would be necessary in order to fix the texture direction thing in the first place.

 

Yes please!

 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Andy Broomell

[grant_PD]

Let's just open up that can of worms completely....

All the doors and windows and walls, while being wrong for architects they are also completely wrong for scenic designers.  There are standard construction techniques for television and film and theater that are not even considered by Vectorworks.  All of the stock parametrics available for us are at best a placeholder. 

 

[P Retondo]

Andy, yes, you have me right – individual extrudes for individual pieces of wood so grain can be applied in the correct direction!

[CipesDesign]

Perhaps the problem is that the folks who wrote the code never examined an actual door?

[grant_PD]

Everyone should have a copy of the Ramsey Sleeper by now....

[PVA - Admin]

I heartily encourage upvoting this wish. I personally have.

[Christian Fekete]

I agree the doors AND windows need to be rethought as the complexity of the OI is such that while I make the effort to use the parameters given I cannot be satisfied that I will get what I need. Very frustrating

[Markvl]

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/41464-custom-sidelights-and-transoms/

 

Give this a thumbs up too folks as I feel the whole door/window tools need some big improvements. 

[Cadplan Architecture]

On 11/21/2016 at 1:29 PM, Markvl said:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/41464-custom-sidelights-and-transoms/

 

Give this a thumbs up too folks as I feel the whole door/window tools need some big improvements. 

 

 

Yes an overhaul is well overdue, we have been asking for custom bifold doors for years now but sadly it seems to fall on deaf ears even though they are soooo common in residential and also commercial projects... :-/

[rDesign]

... as well as Custom Multi-Slide doors where you can specify the number of tracks.

[JMR]

In addition to the geometry issues, I would very much appreciate these:

-a much more flexible door tag (custom tags are way too difficult)

-tag showing door handedness automatically

-tag displaying door size info, as is the default where I live.

-tag displaying fire and acoustic rating, if desired.

 

I know that in theory it is possible to achieve this via custom tag, but why not incorporate these into the standard tag(s)? The data is already there, the tag is already there, it's just a question of connecting these.

 

An important option would be the ability to assing classes to different data fields in the tag. For instance, building permit documents require the display of fire and acoustic ratings, but not handedness and size info, with the exception of egress doors.

[Kevin C]

Could I ask that if looking at the windows and doors then can  you reassess they way that doors and windows are inserted into walls and how they interact with openings as they are sadly very poor.

 

Solid wall construction went out with the arc - why do VW still assume we build solid walls.

1. Allow us to determine the insertion mode and insertion position of a door / window.  What I mean is allow us graphically to chose where the door frame snaps to:
   • The outside face of the frame snaps to the inner face of the outer leaf and is inserted using the outer edge (frame) as the insertion point etc. (My preferred option) But to do this in VW you currently have to place the object then move to suit - very time consuming.  Also when inserting the object, VW takes the entire wall thickness only - doesn't matter how many components make up the wall but to have an object positioned properly in a wall, it has to be inserted then manually adjusted by using the 'offset in wall' tool, which is fine, but beware if you change anything later as your offsets will all be wrong and have to be updated.
2. Fix the internal and external wall detail components - work OK in 2D  - but in 3D they do not (never have done)
3. Sidelights in windows - Does not work whatsoever when you have any wall detail components selected
4. Thresholds - Does not work whatsoever when you have any wall detail components selected
5. Window cills - Do not work at all (Never have done). Again VW seems to assume that wall constructions are solid. THEY ARE NOT.
6. Lintels - I mean structural lintels (what holds up the inner and external leaf of a wall)
7. Openings adjoining multiple wall types - It is not uncommon (actually quite often) for a door or window jamb to be placed at a split in a wall construction, or a change in construction.  The jamb tool does not allow for different LH and RH jambs and head detail - It is (wrongly) assumed that the same detail exists of all sides of the opening.  This is just not true

 

Could go on, but then you would just loose interest.

 

[Markus Barrera-Kolb]

The way trim is presently handled by door & window objects also doesn't correspond with reality, nor does it permit for details such as drywall 'wrapping' on the interior or over-insulation on the exterior (i.e. the exterior cladding and ideally some insulation actually extending part-way over the frame on the exterior). It's currently also not possible to set the swing direction for operable sashes within custom sash windows. Very partial list...

[Markvl]

More to improve on.  You'll see that in the pic attached I've got a double acting door with the swings in the right direction and with the glazing on the correct side of the door

But you'll also see the panic bar is only correct on the right side door as it's on the correct side for direction of travel.  The panic bar on the left door is on the wrong side of the door.

As part of this big wish (That we can see has a lot of votes) can we get the engineers to work this out to display correctly?  Some kind of option to display the hardware in a position

of our choosing but with different controls for both doors.   Like [Flip Hardware Left side]  [Flip Hardware Right Side]

 

At this point to show correctly I'll have to make my own symbol and place it in a cased opening.  Come on VW.  These are the kind of enhancements that people are looking for.

[Bas Vellekoop]

I ran in too this video of the Dutch door and window tool.

Look pretty nice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Markvl]

I cannot speak or understand nederlandse but from what I see this is far more than we've got here in North America.  Can we have this too please?

Edited October 4, 2018 by Markvl

[rgcn]

On 10/3/2018 at 8:41 AM, Bas Vellekoop said:

I ran in too this video of the Dutch door and window tool.

Look pretty nice.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow! We need those!

[Kevin C]

This is what doors and windows have needed - Please can you at least try and incorporate these features into the door and window tools..