Lagging Graphics until pan/zoom

[Tom Klaber 736]

My staff is reporting, and I have seen it myself - a lag in 2D graphical updating after certain operations - most noticeably after 'reshape.'  If you have a polygon - and you use the reshape tool - the polygon entity does seem to change - but it is still displayed as the unmodified polygon.  This is evident when you go to select the polygon - the old moved line will not allow selection - but the invisible new line will - and it will highlight the new shape.  

Nudging the object forces the redraw and corrects the graphic - but this is an issue. 

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Thank you! Submitted.

 

VB-137015

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

I am unable to replicate this here on 2017 SP1 under OS X 10.11.6 (tried in each Navigation Graphics mode just to be sure). Does this happen even in new blank files with any polygonal geometry?

 

If not, can you post the polygon that exhibits the issue here please? I can take a look.

[Tom Klaber 736]

Thanks. I will get them to send me the file.

[Tom Klaber 736]

Here is a link to a video which shows a similar problem.  Since I did not narrate - here is what is going on.

I have spaces that I am turning into an exploded axon programming diagram.

I go to change the 3D Display color of the space. - Then 2 funny things happen:

1) The spaces Z height changes.

2) The space is not redrawn in the changed location.  

You will see that I can not select the object where it is displayed - but I can select the invisible object in its 'real' location.  Once I nudge the object - VW redraws correctly.

 

This does not happen all the time - but it is happening a lot - and all over with all sorts of objects.   Jim - I will PM you the file to take a look at it.  I am in VW17SP1.

 

https://youtu.be/bXD3kmQx_sM

 

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Was this issue with Polygons or Space objects? I may have misunderstood the original post.

[Tom Klaber 736]

It was with polygons.  It is the same issue - but happens with many different object types.   From what I am seeing - I do not think it is a problem with a particular  tool - but something more fundamental. That VW is failing to regenerate modified objects of all types.  

 

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Do you get the same thing in all of the various Navigation Graphics modes? Or only in the two top ones?

[Tom Klaber 736]

All.  Just changed it to Best Compatability - still replicable. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Tom Klaber

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Tools > Options > Vectorworks Preferences > Display > Navigation Graphics.

 

Apologies, I thought we had discussed this before in another thread, this controls whether the new VGM Top/Plan and other VGM enhancements are used or not. The video below explains it as it pertains to system resource usage, but changing it can also narrow down the issue for troubleshooting:

 

 

 

[Tom Klaber 736]

This does not seem to be related to the issue.  It is not "slow" to update - it just does not update at all.  You can navigate around - zoom in and out - the object stays displayed in the incorrect location.  Only when you Nudge the object itself does VW update the object.  

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

To confirm: when it is set to Best Compatibility the issue still occurs?

[Tom Klaber 736]

Correct.  

[Tom Klaber 736]

One of my colleuges just sent me this:

 

Same issue - with a polygon.  She moves the polygon - but the graphics do not update.  She can not select the wall where the wall is displayed - but she can select what she calls the ghost of the wall in the new location. It is not until she moves the whole thing - do the graphics update.

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Could you send me this from any of the machines that are seeing this please? Engineering will ask for it in my report:

 

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/627/DirectX+Diagnostics+and+System+Profiler

[Tom Klaber 736]

Here are 2.  Others in the office are reporting the same thing.

iMac_TK.spx

iMac.spx

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Do you happen to know if they are all 5k iMacs like these? (For testing here, since I can't replicate on my macbook pro)

[Tom Klaber 736]

Yes - so far everybody (3) who has reported this is on a 5K.  

[Art V 402]

This sounds like it is a display issue with very high resolution monitors or two or more HD+ monitors. I'm using two 2K (2560*1440) monitors and can only solve this by setting the display compatibility to Good performance but compatible.

 

What "worries" me a little bit is that even with a recent well-specced graphics card that should not have problems with such monitors the updated VGM may be causing enough stress on the graphics resources for this to happen. I hope this is somehow a bug or code optimization issue in the VGM and not a sign of what is to come with future version where the VGM gets further updated.

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

A lot of the problem, at least on the Mac side, is that they include a few decent GPUs but nowhere near enough VRAM for such high res displays. The minimum VRAM for 4K is generally considered to be around 4GB and I don't think any Macs come with more than 2GB. The newer cards coming out now like Nvidia's 10 series and AMDs 400 series start at 4GB and go all the way to 12GB and higher to accommodate for high res displays, but Apple has yet to adapt.

 

For things like Word or Safari you won't notice this lack of VRAM on a 5k or effectively 7k display with multiple monitors, but since Vectorworks can easily use between 2 and 4GB of VRAM on its own it becomes very obvious very fast. We also have engineering projects in progress to increase the efficiency of our VRAM usage (we use a BUNCH) but the problem also needs to be tackled from the hardware end in some cases.

[Art V 402]

So it is a bit of the age old computing problem of the more power and memory you have the less efficient programmers tend to write the software. (Microsoft, Adobe, Autodesk et al being examples of that)

 

On one hand this comes with the territory of 3D which can be memory hungry because of all the data involved, but for 2D I hope they manage to get the VGM code to be noticably  more efficient as that might be quite a bottleneck for a lot of people because 2D is still the bulk of work for the near future, esp. in corporate environments with computers being replaced only once every few years with little or no option for component upgrades if the computers are relatively new and the new VW version stumbles over the graphics card.

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Oh yeah, I've already overheard many numbers in regards to performance increases that pleased me from a few engineering chats. I have no idea when, as talks around this time in the cycle could just as easily be for the next version as they could for 2 versions away, but things are looking good. I really liked the feature set and performance improvements for 2017 and the next changes coming down the pipe are looking just as good if not better. In the meantime, it is very likely the the majority of graphical instability described in this thread will be correctable on our end through a number of avenues. One of which might even be intelligent detection of hardware and the automatic setting of things like the Navigation Graphics option to give the best possible experience on the given machine.

 

To clarify: This thread in particular is absolutely a bug, not just a growing pain of updates or something like that and will be treated as such, I was just postulating. (Apologies for always seeming to have my head in the future but, I do like it there.)

[Art V 402]

I realise you may not be allowed to disclose information re my next question so no problem is you can't answer it yet.

 

The latest VGM update for VW2017 was sort of "focused" on improving overall graphics display speed for amongst other things large amounts of 2D objects/data if my impression is correct. Will the current round of VGM improvement now swing back to be more 3D focused with 2D improvements tagging along or is it going to be based on user needs until the next VW release and projected VGM  update plans be pushed back a bit to solve current issues first?

 

And now that we are at graphics card issues... do you have an idea if for Windows 10 the Windows update for those on the Anniversary updated version  tend to break the graphics card drivers a bit in general to require them to be reinstalled or is that just a matter of good or bad luck if you run into overall slowness after an update. Two updates with this issue may not be a pattern but it starts to look like that. And if that is the case, could this be part of the problem with display issues on W10?

[PVA - Jim 2,383]

Windows Anniversary Update question: Absolutely. Unrelated to Vectorworks even, I have had many friends have to do the same to get games working again after the update. Game issues on the Windows side often line up very closely with Vectorworks graphical issues related to drivers and updates.

 

As to the VGM, from what I understand improvements to the core of it will now apply both to 2D and 3D views simultaneously. They can still have improvements separately for specific things but more and more different systems are being brought together so that development speed can increase in all areas without having to avoid others. This is by no means DONE yet but that is the direction we are going.

I have not seen or heard a singular focus statement or goal for the next cycle so far, but I have already seen a healthy dose of both concern for speed/stability as well as key new feature inclusions that I think will please many.

[Art V 402]

Re Windows 10 Anniversary, that is a bit of a disappointment as in previous Windows versions (incl. 10 "normal") this was quite rare for me to happen. Oh well, at least it is a relatively easy fix by reinstalling the drivers. Maybe I should keep an eye on gaming forums too to see if problems with VW could be expected on the graphics display end.

 

Re the VGM, that is good to hear, looks like we can expect some nice improvements in the not too distant future, especially if 2D and 3D are moving forward more or less simultaneously.

[Tom Klaber 736]

Changing the Graphical Performance mode did not fix the issue.  Are we thinking it is a graphics card problem?  Are there any iMacs on the market that can run VW17?

 

As an experiment - I am having my colleagues drop down there Performance setting - we will see how the day goes?

Edited October 18, 2016 by Tom Klaber