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Fix editing within all container objects


Kevin McAllister

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On 10/5/2016 at 1:43 AM, Andy Broomell said:

Regarding Paste in Place... The only time where it makes sense for something to paste into a "different place" than on the designer layer is when Pasting-in-Place into a Symbol.

 

I've been meaning to someday post about this.  I understand that Symbols need their own internal origin (and some symbols (certain types) I will even save using the files 0,0 origin so that I can cut & paste-in-place into and out of the symbol).  But it really seems like so many other objects, such as particularly Auto Hybrids and Solids (Additions, etc.) should share the file's 0,0 origin exactly the same way that Groups do, including after being flipped, rotated or moved: after all, they are NOT symbols, and their "definitions" are not shared with any other instances (or duplicates) of themselves.  If I've flipped an Auto Hybrid or a Solid, I want to work with it as it now relates to the rest of its environment, not as it did relate to the rest of its environment before I flipped it.  VWIS138

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On 11/2/2016 at 5:06 AM, line-weight said:

Agreed, this issue makes autohybrids almost unusable for me - the paste-in-place problem plus the fact that they can't contain groups makes editing them very difficult in anything other than a very basic model.

 

If I want to work on an Auto Hybrid, I'm now in the habit of saving its settings, ungrouping it, working with its geometry as desired, and then recreating the Auto Hybrid.  Why isn't that efficient and productive?!  Just kidding.  But for me, the benefits of Auto Hybrids outweigh these additional steps.  Groups inside Auto Hybrids would be nice.

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2 hours ago, willofmaine said:

If I want to work on an Auto Hybrid, I'm now in the habit of saving its settings, ungrouping it, working with its geometry as desired, and then recreating the Auto Hybrid.  Why isn't that efficient and productive?!  Just kidding.  But for me, the benefits of Auto Hybrids outweigh these additional steps.  Groups inside Auto Hybrids would be nice.

 

I do the same thing 😑

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On 10/4/2016 at 4:13 PM, Kevin McAllister said:

Things shouldn't lose their snaps.

 

I'm constantly losing the ability to snap when working in 3D in containers.  I have found that if I temporarily switch the view - say from a front view to a right isometric and back again - I get my snaps back (though not for long - maybe 'til I switch commands?).  Actually, usually, I'll randomly punch a bunch of numbers on the numeric keypad and rapidly flail through a bunch of views while sputtering foul language, but, that extreme probably isn't necessary...  Just switching the view once seems to help.

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1 hour ago, willofmaine said:

 

I'm constantly losing the ability to snap when working in 3D in containers.  I have found that if I temporarily switch the view - say from a front view to a right isometric and back again - I get my snaps back (though not for long - maybe 'til I switch commands?).  Actually, usually, I'll randomly punch a bunch of numbers on the numeric keypad and rapidly flail through a bunch of views while sputtering foul language, but, that extreme probably isn't necessary...  Just switching the view once seems to help.

The snapping has gotten progressively worse, especially within containers nested in other containers. I'm not sure why its deteriorated so much but there's a lot of extra exiting/reentering containers or changing views in my workflow now to try and make it work.

 

Kevin

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I'm bumping this wish. It still applies to VW2019 which is the same and perhaps slightly worse.

 

Editing in symbols is definitely worse in VW2019 but it may just be new bugs associated with the addition of the 2d Component functionality. I've temporarily resorted to cutting and pasting my 3d symbol geometry outside the symbol, editing it and then pasting it back into the symbol.

 

Kevin

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This is a quite old thread but very high rated.

 

So 6 years later,

which of all mentioned issues are still in VW 2022 ?

Or were there finally some of them fixed or improved over time ?

 

I usually avoid problematic VW workflows at one point.

E.g. never use any Mirror Tools, I tediously rotate and move things back in place,

do not move/rotate or avoid any Extrudes with multiple 2D content, immediately

convert Solid Add/Subtractions after editing back to generic Solids and

such things.

So I never recognized if those issues were fixed or not.

 

I just think we got some new strange behaviors since screen plane deprecation,

where I think screen plane dependencies were not all deleted from deeper

container object, PIO or other objects contents.

Edited by zoomer
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Screen Plane hasn't gone anywhere.  It's been renamed or hidden, and it's been removed from the primary working environment, but it's still a necessity in the hybrid environment of Vectorworks.

 

If you go to a 3D view within the 2D component of a symbol, the geometry's orientation doesn't change... it remains parallel to the screen... the very definition of "Screen Plane."

 

Create a brand new, blank file.  Draw a rectangle.  Duplicate it and extrude it.  Create a symbol.  Edit the 2D Component, and in the OIP there's no "Plane" pull-down for the rectangle.  Go to Document Preferences > Legacy 2D and select "Enable legacy 2D features."  The "Plane" pull-down then appears, and the rectangle is in the Screen plane...

 

 

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1 hour ago, willofmaine said:

but it's still a necessity in the hybrid environment of Vectorworks.

 

Since I started with VW 2014, I never understood for what at all I could

need such a "screen plane" feature.

I personally I am very happy that screen plane is now hidden.

(no problem that users who think they need it, can unhide it again)

And in any App before or beside VW I never saw any feature like

screen plane and ever had the feeling I would miss something.

So I am fine and will call a "screen plane" feature, hidden behind an

"enable 2D Legacy" - deprecated (*)

 

(*) In Apple definition, we told you years ago it is outdated and you

should avoid to use it. OK, it is still there but will not get any

further improvements. And it is official now - it will go one day,

this is your last chance to get forward)

 

 

But my problem was not that screen plane is deprecated.

My problem was that certain bugs or misbehaviors of VW made me

feel that maybe not ALL rests of screen plane were already found

and worked over in all tools, so that in some dark VW corners there

may be still traces of screen plane that negatively influence a now

screen plane-free workflow in VW 2022.

(Like when you edit Extrudes or Slabs in a 3D View and get an abnormal

result - while it will work only when you switch to a Top Plan View)

It is just my assumption, that these issues are related to the attempt to

clean VW Tools from screen plane dependency.

 

 

But my main question was,

are still ALL mentioned issues in this thread still happening in VW 2022,

or are there already some been fixed over the years.

(In case someone from VW may be interested in fixing any still existing

issues)

 

 

 

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Sorry, I'm pretty new to VW 2022, but I want to say that generally many if not most of the issues raised in the OP persist with VW 2022.

 

Maybe it's not screen plane per se that's a necessity in Vectorworks' hybrid environment, as much as a way to differentiate between representations in 2D plan views and representations in 3D views (including "Top" view).  Screen plane just seems to be the way that it's done.  I too agree that hiding screen plane is a good thing, even if, as it seems, it hasn't been entirely successful...

 

For example, giving up screen plane seems to mean also having to give up cropped perspectives, which seems to be the only way that camera views can sort of have a "viewfinder" for framing images so that they can be effectively composed:  https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/88281-rw-cameras-hide-outside-of-frame-aka-blue-crop-corners-dont-cut-it/ 

 

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17 hours ago, willofmaine said:

RW Cameras: hide outside of frame (aka blue crop corners don't cut it)

 

 

I also would like to have it like in 3D Apps.

- Camera frame fits into current View aspect ratio

- View parts not included of camera view are dimmed - at a settable amount

 

My problem with VW's "cropped perspective" was always that it appeared

at any random size

(only about a 5th - 10th of view estate with no way to change)

and that view navigation just moved the crop frame instead of allowing

to manipulate the camera.

 

I would also be ok with a 80-90% of view only frame crop,

to still see some surrounding and estimate what could potentially occlude

your camera if you do changes. 

Edited by zoomer
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Cropped Perspective is still in Document Settings > Display, but only if "Enable legacy 2D features" is active.  Otherwise, it simply disappears entirely from the Document Settings dialogue box (it's not even just grayed out).  I'm not sure what you mean about its appearing at any random size and view navigation just moving the crop frame.  When "Crop perspective view" is active, there's a rectangle (rather than the useless blue crop marks that are only at the corners), and that rectangle represents both the frame ("viewfinder") and the aspect ratio of the camera.  The image within the rectangle can be manipulated using tools such as the Flyover, Walkthrough and Translate tools.  Using scroll zoom moves the crop frame, without annoyingly changing your composition.

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Well, I successfully avoided the "Crop Perspective View" since many years

by adapting all of my templates.

In the past there was even a bug at some time that arbitrarily activated that

unwanted feature while working again, but that was quite some years ago.

So I do not know if there were any improvements to this in later VW versions.

 

But I always hated it in that past.

I think it was because you could navigate the Crop Geometry as well as you

could accidentally manipulate its content at the same time.

 

AFAIK

the "Crop" also opened for me also at a random size on my Monitor when

i activated a Camera.

(Which I also avoided to use since VW 2016 when Cameras tended to

arbitrarily lose their position and move back to file origin. I didn't even

bother with VW Cameras again and did them in C4D from scratch)

 

But maybe I mixed that up with the insufficient blue crosses alternative,

that always only used to use only a fraction of my monitore estate.

And I found no way with any VW Settings like View Window DPI and

such to bring the blue camera corner symbols to using a reasonable size

in my drawing window.

 

But as I did no more use VW Cameras, I may have missed any later

improvements with these (fat) blue angles on screen either ....

 

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