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Fix editing within all container objects


Kevin McAllister

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On 10/5/2016 at 1:43 AM, Andy Broomell said:

Regarding Paste in Place... The only time where it makes sense for something to paste into a "different place" than on the designer layer is when Pasting-in-Place into a Symbol.

 

I've been meaning to someday post about this.  I understand that Symbols need their own internal origin (and some symbols (certain types) I will even save using the files 0,0 origin so that I can cut & paste-in-place into and out of the symbol).  But it really seems like so many other objects, such as particularly Auto Hybrids and Solids (Additions, etc.) should share the file's 0,0 origin exactly the same way that Groups do, including after being flipped, rotated or moved: after all, they are NOT symbols, and their "definitions" are not shared with any other instances (or duplicates) of themselves.  If I've flipped an Auto Hybrid or a Solid, I want to work with it as it now relates to the rest of its environment, not as it did relate to the rest of its environment before I flipped it.  VWIS138

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On 11/2/2016 at 5:06 AM, line-weight said:

Agreed, this issue makes autohybrids almost unusable for me - the paste-in-place problem plus the fact that they can't contain groups makes editing them very difficult in anything other than a very basic model.

 

If I want to work on an Auto Hybrid, I'm now in the habit of saving its settings, ungrouping it, working with its geometry as desired, and then recreating the Auto Hybrid.  Why isn't that efficient and productive?!  Just kidding.  But for me, the benefits of Auto Hybrids outweigh these additional steps.  Groups inside Auto Hybrids would be nice.

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2 hours ago, willofmaine said:

If I want to work on an Auto Hybrid, I'm now in the habit of saving its settings, ungrouping it, working with its geometry as desired, and then recreating the Auto Hybrid.  Why isn't that efficient and productive?!  Just kidding.  But for me, the benefits of Auto Hybrids outweigh these additional steps.  Groups inside Auto Hybrids would be nice.

 

I do the same thing 😑

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On 10/4/2016 at 4:13 PM, Kevin McAllister said:

Things shouldn't lose their snaps.

 

I'm constantly losing the ability to snap when working in 3D in containers.  I have found that if I temporarily switch the view - say from a front view to a right isometric and back again - I get my snaps back (though not for long - maybe 'til I switch commands?).  Actually, usually, I'll randomly punch a bunch of numbers on the numeric keypad and rapidly flail through a bunch of views while sputtering foul language, but, that extreme probably isn't necessary...  Just switching the view once seems to help.

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1 hour ago, willofmaine said:

 

I'm constantly losing the ability to snap when working in 3D in containers.  I have found that if I temporarily switch the view - say from a front view to a right isometric and back again - I get my snaps back (though not for long - maybe 'til I switch commands?).  Actually, usually, I'll randomly punch a bunch of numbers on the numeric keypad and rapidly flail through a bunch of views while sputtering foul language, but, that extreme probably isn't necessary...  Just switching the view once seems to help.

The snapping has gotten progressively worse, especially within containers nested in other containers. I'm not sure why its deteriorated so much but there's a lot of extra exiting/reentering containers or changing views in my workflow now to try and make it work.

 

Kevin

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I'm bumping this wish. It still applies to VW2019 which is the same and perhaps slightly worse.

 

Editing in symbols is definitely worse in VW2019 but it may just be new bugs associated with the addition of the 2d Component functionality. I've temporarily resorted to cutting and pasting my 3d symbol geometry outside the symbol, editing it and then pasting it back into the symbol.

 

Kevin

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This is a quite old thread but very high rated.

 

So 6 years later,

which of all mentioned issues are still in VW 2022 ?

Or were there finally some of them fixed or improved over time ?

 

I usually avoid problematic VW workflows at one point.

E.g. never use any Mirror Tools, I tediously rotate and move things back in place,

do not move/rotate or avoid any Extrudes with multiple 2D content, immediately

convert Solid Add/Subtractions after editing back to generic Solids and

such things.

So I never recognized if those issues were fixed or not.

 

I just think we got some new strange behaviors since screen plane deprecation,

where I think screen plane dependencies were not all deleted from deeper

container object, PIO or other objects contents.

Edited by zoomer
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Screen Plane hasn't gone anywhere.  It's been renamed or hidden, and it's been removed from the primary working environment, but it's still a necessity in the hybrid environment of Vectorworks.

 

If you go to a 3D view within the 2D component of a symbol, the geometry's orientation doesn't change... it remains parallel to the screen... the very definition of "Screen Plane."

 

Create a brand new, blank file.  Draw a rectangle.  Duplicate it and extrude it.  Create a symbol.  Edit the 2D Component, and in the OIP there's no "Plane" pull-down for the rectangle.  Go to Document Preferences > Legacy 2D and select "Enable legacy 2D features."  The "Plane" pull-down then appears, and the rectangle is in the Screen plane...

 

 

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1 hour ago, willofmaine said:

but it's still a necessity in the hybrid environment of Vectorworks.

 

Since I started with VW 2014, I never understood for what at all I could

need such a "screen plane" feature.

I personally I am very happy that screen plane is now hidden.

(no problem that users who think they need it, can unhide it again)

And in any App before or beside VW I never saw any feature like

screen plane and ever had the feeling I would miss something.

So I am fine and will call a "screen plane" feature, hidden behind an

"enable 2D Legacy" - deprecated (*)

 

(*) In Apple definition, we told you years ago it is outdated and you

should avoid to use it. OK, it is still there but will not get any

further improvements. And it is official now - it will go one day,

this is your last chance to get forward)

 

 

But my problem was not that screen plane is deprecated.

My problem was that certain bugs or misbehaviors of VW made me

feel that maybe not ALL rests of screen plane were already found

and worked over in all tools, so that in some dark VW corners there

may be still traces of screen plane that negatively influence a now

screen plane-free workflow in VW 2022.

(Like when you edit Extrudes or Slabs in a 3D View and get an abnormal

result - while it will work only when you switch to a Top Plan View)

It is just my assumption, that these issues are related to the attempt to

clean VW Tools from screen plane dependency.

 

 

But my main question was,

are still ALL mentioned issues in this thread still happening in VW 2022,

or are there already some been fixed over the years.

(In case someone from VW may be interested in fixing any still existing

issues)

 

 

 

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Sorry, I'm pretty new to VW 2022, but I want to say that generally many if not most of the issues raised in the OP persist with VW 2022.

 

Maybe it's not screen plane per se that's a necessity in Vectorworks' hybrid environment, as much as a way to differentiate between representations in 2D plan views and representations in 3D views (including "Top" view).  Screen plane just seems to be the way that it's done.  I too agree that hiding screen plane is a good thing, even if, as it seems, it hasn't been entirely successful...

 

For example, giving up screen plane seems to mean also having to give up cropped perspectives, which seems to be the only way that camera views can sort of have a "viewfinder" for framing images so that they can be effectively composed:  https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/88281-rw-cameras-hide-outside-of-frame-aka-blue-crop-corners-dont-cut-it/ 

 

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17 hours ago, willofmaine said:

RW Cameras: hide outside of frame (aka blue crop corners don't cut it)

 

 

I also would like to have it like in 3D Apps.

- Camera frame fits into current View aspect ratio

- View parts not included of camera view are dimmed - at a settable amount

 

My problem with VW's "cropped perspective" was always that it appeared

at any random size

(only about a 5th - 10th of view estate with no way to change)

and that view navigation just moved the crop frame instead of allowing

to manipulate the camera.

 

I would also be ok with a 80-90% of view only frame crop,

to still see some surrounding and estimate what could potentially occlude

your camera if you do changes. 

Edited by zoomer
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Cropped Perspective is still in Document Settings > Display, but only if "Enable legacy 2D features" is active.  Otherwise, it simply disappears entirely from the Document Settings dialogue box (it's not even just grayed out).  I'm not sure what you mean about its appearing at any random size and view navigation just moving the crop frame.  When "Crop perspective view" is active, there's a rectangle (rather than the useless blue crop marks that are only at the corners), and that rectangle represents both the frame ("viewfinder") and the aspect ratio of the camera.  The image within the rectangle can be manipulated using tools such as the Flyover, Walkthrough and Translate tools.  Using scroll zoom moves the crop frame, without annoyingly changing your composition.

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Well, I successfully avoided the "Crop Perspective View" since many years

by adapting all of my templates.

In the past there was even a bug at some time that arbitrarily activated that

unwanted feature while working again, but that was quite some years ago.

So I do not know if there were any improvements to this in later VW versions.

 

But I always hated it in that past.

I think it was because you could navigate the Crop Geometry as well as you

could accidentally manipulate its content at the same time.

 

AFAIK

the "Crop" also opened for me also at a random size on my Monitor when

i activated a Camera.

(Which I also avoided to use since VW 2016 when Cameras tended to

arbitrarily lose their position and move back to file origin. I didn't even

bother with VW Cameras again and did them in C4D from scratch)

 

But maybe I mixed that up with the insufficient blue crosses alternative,

that always only used to use only a fraction of my monitore estate.

And I found no way with any VW Settings like View Window DPI and

such to bring the blue camera corner symbols to using a reasonable size

in my drawing window.

 

But as I did no more use VW Cameras, I may have missed any later

improvements with these (fat) blue angles on screen either ....

 

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On 12/8/2016 at 11:34 AM, PVA - Admin said:

1) Paste in Place within a container should paste at the coordinates of the copied objects relative to the location of the container being edited, NOT relative to 0,0 in the document and 0,0 in the containers internal coordinate system.

PVA-Admin

 

Assisting a person new to VW and suggested that they DO NOT use Paste in Place in newer versions of VW 2019-2023  - inside a container  - (Extrude in this instance).

     They referenced this FORUM thread (Fix editing within all container objects.   Yes, it is 7  years old...) when hunting for a solution.

After my renewed tests to Paste in Place inside a simple extrude, I do NOT have a real solution.

 

 

The PVA - Admin Comment 1) quoted above just does not provide any solution.

     In simple English: Do NOT use Paste in Place inside a container. It does not work as you assume it should.

          Paste in Place should be called ... where did it go  ?!?  - What is the real logic ? (an animated example may be appropriate here)

 

 

Kevin, Andy, Zoomer, Maine all have great commentary above, (Thanks) though I feel a solution never appears.

 

 

******************************

Here is what is happening in the attached example.

Existing design

Top View

Open GL Rendering

Select simple Extrude

Double Click to Edit

Problem One

     Blank Screen

 

Problem Two

     Nothing Selected (Where did it Go ?)

Select All

Zoom / Fit

 

Problem Three

     Base 2D geometry for this extrude is rotated from the expected orientation

Select single shape

Cut 

Paste in Place

 

Problem Four

     Dialog Box: Option to convert to Screen Plane (¿ Why or Why Not ?)  

When this shape was selected there was NOT a option in the OIP to alter / define Layer Plane vs Screen Plane

     (Or Working Plane, or 3D Plane or Extrude Plane for that mater...)

Why is there NOW an option needed to alter its state ?

     Just want to put the item exactly back where it it visually came from.

Default response (YES) is selected

 

Problem Five

     Nothing visible Pasted in the current view

     OIP shows a selected item

Select All Zoom to Fit

Two Items Selected 

Several Meters apart (?)

Select item outside the Page Boundary

Zoom to Fit

 

Problem Six

Pasted object is yet again rotated from the previous and the expected orientation.

 

¿ The question here is Why this location ?

 

So if Paste in Place will not function as desired / expected, then simply designate a location with a click of the cursor, and use Paste. 

     (Then move the object back into position as needed.)

 

Deselect All

Select Item inside the Page Boundary

Zoom to Fit + Zoom Out (slightly)

Click in the drawing near by

     (This should be the location that the clipboard will paste at)

Paste (ie: NOT Paste in Place)

Again: Dialog Box: Option to convert to Screen Plane (¿ Why or Why Not ?)  

Default response (YES) is selected

 

Problem Seven

     Nothing visible Pasted in the current view

          (Is Paste also malfunctioning inside a container ?)

     OIP shows an item selected 

 

Again, click in the drawing near by

     (Again, this should designate the location that the clipboard will paste at)

Paste (ie: NOT Paste in Place)

Again: Dialog Box: Option to convert to Screen Plane (¿ Why or Why Not ?)  

Change the response, NO is selected this time.

 

Problem Eight

     Nothing visible Pasted in the current view

     OIP shows a Polyline selected 

 

Repeat one more time, just in case ... (¿ What is the difference ?)

 

Problem Nine

     Again, nothing visible Pasted in the current view

     OIP shows an item selected 

 

Select All

Zoom to Fit

Paste in Place and Paste Objects are all out in space   ¿ far from the original location it was cut from ?

 

Keep in mind that this Drawing / Extrude / Item could be inherited from an old drawing / older version of VW/RW ...

 

Problem Ten

     Workaround required to control this inexplicable anomaly

Copy Item (Do Not Cut)

Open a new drawing

Paste

Modify as needed

Change to Screen Plane in the OIP

Copy this modified Item (Do Not Cut)

Change back to the original drawing

Click in this original drawing

     (This should be the location that the clipboard will paste at)

Paste (ie: NOT Paste in Place)

Again: Dialog Box: Option to convert to Screen Plane (¿ Why or Why Not ?)  

     Default response (YES) is selected, even though the item was set as a Screen Plane in the OIP ?

 

The item is now Pasted Close to where it is desired

Move / Rotate / etcetera to place as modified item as needed

Original item is still at the expected location, it can be used as a reference to locate the modified shape.

Delete original shape

Exit Extrude

******************************

 

 

As a user of VW/RW since MiniCAD days, I would really like to understand the functionality of how

          1)Paste in Place within a container should paste at the coordinates of the copied objects... 

fits into any work flow, when outside the container world Paste in Place is vastly different.

 

 

 

Question: Is there a way to move the container to  ...the containers internal coordinate system ? 

 

 

          Answers & Advice Are Always Appreciated

 

 

Film was made in VW2020 on an iMac Pro 

 

Peter

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Fix editing within all container objects

 

(Rotates when Editing an Extrude…)

     Rotates when Editing v2023.vwx

 

Existing Object from previous design - When and how these extrudes were created is not known.

.      2 Extrudes (Created from three components) 

The extrudes are created from different fundamental shapes - this may be relevant to the rotation when editing in the Extrude container.

 

*******************************

Wireframe

Double click left item

Edit 2D remains in same location as the Extrude

Simple “X-Y Logic” to modify.

X-Y-Z indicators match Screen Plane

Move and 3D Move are in functional in relation to 2D & original extrude location

 

Wireframe

Double click Right item

Edit 2D rotates from the location of the Extrude

Simple “X-Y Logic” is lost - ie: Move and 3D Move are no longer functional

 

 

*******************************

Shaded Render

Double click left item

Edit 2D now rotates from the Extrudes location

     (Different than in Wireframe - Why ?)

 

*******************************

 

2D Objects are “Extrude #1 Plane”

X-Y-Z indicators match Screen Plane (Why?)

Move and 3D Move are in relation to Screen Plane

 

If a Script or (?) would put the 2D components of an Extrude aligned with X-Y as the indicators (Screen Plane) show, or could optionally reset the internal container origin to 0-0 ?

 

MacBook Pro M1 Max - OS 12.6 - VW/RW Designer 2023 SP4

Rotates when Editing v2023.vwx

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The following script seems to work on your test case. Please try it and see if it does what you expect in a reasonable fashion.

 

Select a single object that has its "edit" location out of sync with the actual object location.

Run the script.

The script will ask you to draw a line from where you want the zero, zero point in the edit mode along the horizontal axis of the object.

The script will then move and rotate the original object back to the original position.

 

Use with care on files that you have a backup copy of. Extremely lightly tested. There are almost certainly edge cases or bugs that will result in unexpected operation. The code does not check that the object type can be handled by the script. (yet).

 

Tested relatively well on moved and rotated single level extrusions. May or may not work on nested 3D solids.

 

If you find conditions the script does not handle properly, please make sure to include a test file showing the initial object state.

 

No promised that there will ever be a revision.

 

Use at your own risk. No warrantee or guarantee of any kind. User responsible for determination of suitability for purpose.

 

Procedure Test;
{©2023  Pat Stanford - pat@coviana.com}
{licensed under the Boost Software License 1.0}
{https://github.com/boostorg/boost/blob/master/LICENSE_1_0.txt}
{TL/DR Use as you want, attribution for source, No warranty}

{This is a first attempt at a script to relocate the}
{"construction" (sub parts) of a 3D solid to match}
{the actual location of the part in 2D space.}
{If a 3D solid is rotated/moved after the solid}
{operations occur, when you edit the solid you often}
{have the "construction" objects in a different editing}
{location than the solid. This means that Show Other}
{Objects While In Editing Modes is less than helpful.}
{This script attempts to relocate the "construction"}
{objects to the zero/zero point of the 3D solid and }
{then move the solid so it is still at the original}
{point in 3D space.}

{This is an early prototype and very lightly tested.}
{Please use caution in using this script and use only}
{on files that have backups available.}

{I am looking for comments on the usefulness of the}
{script and bugs and suggestions. Please send test}
{files showing any bugs or other use cases.}

{Select a single object (3D solid) and run the}
{script. Draw a single line from the point on}
{the object you want to display at zero/zero in the}
{solids editing mode to the right defining what you want}
{to be the horizontal axix of the object in editing mode.}
{the "construction" objects will be rotated and moved}
{and the original object will be relocated back to its}
{original position.}

{Use with care. May cause hair loss. Here be dragons.}
VAR
	X1,Y1, X2, Y2					:Real;
	H1, H3, H4, H5, H6				:Handle;
	X3,Y3, X4,Y4, X5,Y5, X6,Y6		:Real;
	Rot1							:Real;
	Waldo							:Handle;
	
BEGIN
	If Count(VSEL)=1 THEN
		Begin
			Locus(0,0);
			Waldo:=LNewObj;
			H1:=PrevSObj(Waldo);
			Message('Click at the desired zero point and drag a line defining the object editing horizonal axis. Click when done.');
			GetLine(X1,Y1,X2,Y2);
			ClrMessage;
			Locus(X1,Y1);
			H3:=LNewObj;
			Locus(X2,Y2);
			H4:=LNewObj;
			DSelectAll;
			SetSelect(H3);
			SetSelect(H4);
			DoMenuTextByName('Cut',0);
			SetSelect(H1);
			EditObjectSpecial(H1, 4);
			DoMenuTextByName('Paste in Place',0);
			Locus(0,0);
			Waldo:=LNewObj;
			H4:=PrevSObj(Waldo);
			H3:=PrevSObj(H4);
			GetBBox(H3,X3,Y3,X6,Y6);
{AlrtDialog(Concat('H2: ',GetTypeN(H3),'   X: ',X3,'   y: ',Y3));
		IF X3<0 then X3:=-X3;
		IF Y3<0 then Y3:=-Y3;
}	
			GetBBox(H4,X4,Y4,X6,Y6);
{AlrtDialog(Concat('H3: ',GetTypeN(H4),'   X: ',X4,'   y: ',Y4));	
		If X4<0 then X4:=-X4;
		If Y4<0 then Y4:=-Y4;
}			SelectAll;
	
	{calc the angle to Rotate}
			Moveto(X3,Y3);
			LineTo(X4,Y4);
			Rot1:=HAngle(LNewObj);
{	If Rot1<0 then Rot1:=Rot1+360;
}			DelObject(LNewObj);
{	AlrtDialog(CONCAT(Date(2,2),'  Angle is: ',Rot1,'  ',X3,'  ',Y3));}
	
	{move objects inside selection}
			H5:=H4;
			While H5<>Nil DO
				BEGIN
					HMove(H5,-X3,-Y3);
					H5:=PrevSObj(H5);
				End;
		
	{rotate objects inside selection}	
			H5:=H4;
			While H5<> Nil DO
				BEGIN
					HRotate(H5, 0,0,-Rot1);
					H5:=PrevSObj(H5);
				End;
		
			DelObject(Waldo);
			DelObject(H4);
			DelObject(H3);
			DoMenuTextByName('Group Navigation Chunk',2);

	{move and rotate to correct location}

			HRotate(H1,X1,Y1,Rot1);
			HMove(H1,X3,Y3);
		END
	ELSE AlrtDialog('Script can only run with a single selected object.');
	
	
End;

Run(Test);

 

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Pat

 

Many thanks again to you  - Works great !

 

Quick test in VW 2023: the fundamental component of an extrude does not uselessly rotate the drawing.  One also appears to be able, once again, to copy and Paste in Place as expected. 

 

 

See attached: No More Rotation when editing.mov

 

Initial double click to edit extrude, uselessly rotates the drawing

Run Script above,  double click to edit extrude...

 

1. Extrude remains in same position 3D & 2D

2. Edit process is back to being simple logic

3. Tools / cursor work as expected

 

 

Peter

 

 

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