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BIM - Taking the Plunge - Advice?


Tom Klaber

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Just now, Markvl said:

The top question in my mind would be "What to model and what to leave alone".

By - "leave alone" - do you mean draw traditionally?

My hope was that for this first round to get all plans, elevations, sections, and interior elevations out of the model.  My thought is that we would continue to draw our details traditionally.  This I hope will take some pressure off of the model, and will still give us usable access to all of our standard details in our firm library.   I want to try and get this all in one file, because I want to push on the drawing coordination features - but there is big resistance and fear of the 1 file project. 

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I usually go with two separate files.  The second file is all 2D details that are not generated in any way from the model.  I do this like you said to keep the model file from getting

bogged down.  By leave alone I mean stuff like cabinets, appliances and the like.  The 3D model in general gets me my elevations, plans, sections and a perspective for a cover sheet.

I also use the model as a reference in the siteplan file.  You can certainly do everything in one file and there are certainly advantages to that, but I find that all that info can bog a file down.

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I now work with a 3Dmodel as much as possible. You are drawing a wall and adding a window. Its already 3D. Final touches like my 2D sheet layers all come from the model with enhancements like tiling 2D furniture (to speed up the render rather than show the 3D furniture) our house files never get over 250,000KB. I use autohybrids to deal with all my extruded items so they show correctly in the top/plan viewport view. I find this quick as I ma constantly modelling in 3d for the client and the designer who is working over my shoulder to design because he cant use VW3d and wont get off the Sk****up program.

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This is a very interesting thread.

The vendor of the german VW release forum said we should do complete BIM until 1:50:
Don't know the LOD but that sounds quite optimistic.
To be fair the german Arch/BiM Tools are quite a bit more advanced.

(E.g. our finally new Railing Tool was released in VW 2013 over there)

But I think the most part is just to use the VW Tools accordingly.
Like Alan's post made me realize that I never used and even already forgot autohybrids.

Edited by zoomer
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1 minute ago, zoomer said:

This is a very interesting thread.

The vendor of the german forum said we should do complete BIM until 1:50:
Don't know the LOD but that sounds quite optimistic.
To be fair the german Arch/BiM Tools are quite a bit more advanced.

(E.g. our finally new Railing Tool was released in VW 2013 over there)

But I think the most part is just to use the VW Tools accordingly.
Like Alan's post made me realize that I never used and even already forgot autohybrids.

 

Thanks.  
I have not fully embraced auto-hybrids.  I still use hybrid symbols which seem more stable....

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Auto hybrids. Say I model a pergola in 3D and I want to show dotted over with solid post in the plan and then dotted Over in another viewport then in the roof plan I want to show it solid looking down. All done with the pergola model converted to auto hybrid then with 3 classes auto hybrid-section, under and over.you can control what you see in the different view ports. No need to draw any 2d lines.

learnt all this from Jonathon Pickup the Guru. Never looked back. No more extra drawing line for 2d

 

Edited by Alan Woodwell
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I've been working on a couple of legacy projects of late and it's painful to go back once you start.

This fits generally with what everyone has said above. The golden rule around here is "if it need to be co-ordinated it's in the model if it's just elaboration then draw by hand". 

The 1:50 rule seems to fit pretty well. We set our working layers at 1:50 so line-weights work out ok when scaled back for overalls and still work well as backgrounds to 1:20 and 1:10s which can be detailed completely by hand but you still get visual clues from the background model view if things have moved.

We keep Model and Plans in one file and to keep file and memory footprint clean. Separate files each for Elevations, Sections and Construction details, Joinery and Wet Areas Although we testing keeping these in the main file and using the new teamwork system. Drawings that are for council applications like shadows and renders that have lots of rendered graphics and add to the file size dramatically are still going to stay workgroup referenced.

To me BIM is more a mind set than a computer system, people who are good at putting together traditional drawings will get it quickly. Others will have new versions of the same problems.

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for the last 5 years i've modelled everything, even if nobody asked, and even for single-family detached houses, or even demolition objects.

after all those years (i think) i've gained the experience to choose to model the significant stuff in the first place, but i still model more than enough. only in this way you'll acquire the modelling speed and efficiency.

now i start all models with the raw definition of 3d geometry, and saturate the data along with the project's progress. and i assign everything to ifc as soon as possible, and check ifc exports in solibri model viewer very often. my next purchase will be simplebim, just to be sure everything is all right with ifc data. the ifc focus is essential...

paralelly it's good to cooperate with the owner, but also with design consultants and other engineers in a more direct way. and, of course, bim execution plan is a must.

rob

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On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:14 PM, Tom Klaber said:

After fighting it for years - out of the blue the partners here have decided that we are going "Full On BIM."  We are moving from a 2D only workflow (a basic one at that) - no plugin objects - no walls or doors.  Any advice on the transition? Any missteps to try and avoid?

Tom,

I couldn't recommend it more. Its a bit of a learning curve to move from 2d to 3d however I couldn't be more happier with the BIM element. The only problem youll face later on is figuring out how to share information in drawing format. It's especially useful because recently renderworks was recently fully integrated into vectorworks architect and the hatch / texture feature is incredible! among various space features.

 

What you mentioned about annotation earlier...now you can set additional 'annotation' layers to the same story plane as your design layers, and you can fully separate annotation from the BIM model itself. Youll need a fairly powerful computer for most of the operations though...although ill admit, much less powerful than a revit workstation. Good luck!

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21 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

Tom,

I couldn't recommend it more. Its a bit of a learning curve to move from 2d to 3d however I couldn't be more happier with the BIM element. The only problem youll face later on is figuring out how to share information in drawing format. It's especially useful because recently renderworks was recently fully integrated into vectorworks architect and the hatch / texture feature is incredible! among various space features.

 

What you mentioned about annotation earlier...now you can set additional 'annotation' layers to the same story plane as your design layers, and you can fully separate annotation from the BIM model itself. Youll need a fairly powerful computer for most of the operations though...although ill admit, much less powerful than a revit workstation. Good luck!

 

I am totally on board, now just have to drag this reluctant and skeptical staff.  
 

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21 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

Tom,

I couldn't recommend it more. Its a bit of a learning curve to move from 2d to 3d however I couldn't be more happier with the BIM element. The only problem youll face later on is figuring out how to share information in drawing format. It's especially useful because recently renderworks was recently fully integrated into vectorworks architect and the hatch / texture feature is incredible! among various space features.

 

What you mentioned about annotation earlier...now you can set additional 'annotation' layers to the same story plane as your design layers, and you can fully separate annotation from the BIM model itself. Youll need a fairly powerful computer for most of the operations though...although ill admit, much less powerful than a revit workstation. Good luck!

 
 

So to clarify - you annotate IN the model - IN the Design layers - and not in the annotations of the SLVP?

Edited by Tom Klaber
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Although I need no 2D construction plans at the end,
I do everything to work BIM.

 

But I am indeed fighting with Architectural Tools all the time.
Easy things like 4 wall styles meeting at one point, same wall style but 3 different heights needed or

avoid walls with different materials L-joining although capped mode active and such things.
Same with Slabs. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

So to clarify - you annotate IN the model - IN the Design layers - and not in the annotations of the SLVP?

Yes I do. There are two ways to do it. Either you work with both layers and classes, or separate them into different design layers.

My method : Usually my classes for annotation start with a A- (whatever the annotation layer is) or and 2d line work. I put the prefix BLDG-.... for classifying BIM components. 

The great thing in VW is that it groups all classes by the first hyphen...In other words A- has a triangle next to it that opens all the other classes below it. Try to add a few classes

A-Anno

A-Linework

A-Viewport

Youll notice they're all grouped under A. Just make sure you have the hyphen in there, no other separator will work.

To make a long story short, when referencing them in the sheet layer viewports, just turn A- on or off under the classes category.

 

Now theres a new thing - You can have 2 or 3 design layers for the same floor level (I had trouble in 2016 though, in 2017 it works) That means if you have multiple split levels, or just an annotation design layer, you can put all of that information in there. Or better yet, just reference the BIM file in another vectorworks file, and annotate there. It eliminates your worry about having a single editable file and second it allows you to annotate in the design layer viewports.

 

One common thing though....When doing sections and elevations, unfortunately there is no workaround sheet layer viewport annotation. This is the ONLY exception to the rule. If you were to reference the section or elevation in a design layer view, it wouldn't work and as a result would tesselate the model - UNLESS you provide annotation in the design layer view that is aligned to the plane of the viewport.

 

Hope this works. Let me know if you need an example file for your info.

 Sam 

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i put all my 2d elements for floor plans for each storey in separate design layers, which will be then switched off and invisible in the model exports (they don't get selected in the storey layout of the ifc export at all). the sections and elevations get annotated in the slvp's. i also put additionally modelled 3d elements in separate design layers, and this time those elements get exported and selected for ifc storey layout.

i've noticed that the data inserted for standard elements in their oip get exported to further psets of ifc entities (beside the application-generated ones), so the native model is more or less interactive with the ifc model.

Edited by gester
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3 hours ago, gester said:

i put all my 2d elements for floor plans for each storey in separate design layers, which will be then switched off and invisible in the model exports (they don't get selected in the storey layout of the ifc export at all). the sections and elevations get annotated in the slvp's. i also put additionally modelled 3d elements in separate design layers, and this time those elements get exported and selected for ifc storey layout.

i've noticed that the data inserted for standard elements in their oip get exported to further psets of ifc entities (beside the application-generated ones), so the native model is more or less interactive with the ifc model.

From my experience notes and annotation still have to have an IFC record in order for them to be exported, and even then i'm not sure if they would be exported via geometry or not. I have a lot of experience just annotating on the design layer that the model is located (which is my mistake) because they end up showing up on the elevations or sections if the planar objects check box is marked off. You make a very good point about putting them on a separate design layer if you aren't very strict in putting the notes in the right annotation layer - especially if you have your own classing system for notes or elements on that sheet. - just make sure they're higher than the story you're annotating so that they don't appear behind or below the elements that are drawn above grade level (which is usually default for annotation level) so you have to assign the design layer to have the same story that the design layer is located.

 

This is something I will do in the future as well.

Edited by Samuel Derenboim
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samuel, thanks for the hint on annotations' possible ifc export. i'll have to test it myself.

as for 2d or 3d elements they are set up to appear in the right position on the plans or in the models: for the models 2d layers are switched off, and for the plans all 3d layers that would mess up the 2d floor plans' appearance are switched off, too.

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My experience with this so far. I started "taking the plunge" about a year ago now.

 

Previously, I'd model in 3D using sketchup, and produce the accurate (2D) documentation drawings in VW.

 

I'm in the process of trying to bring everything into VW. So I do the 3D modelling in VW, and in theory generate the 2D documentation in VW. I have some older projects that I'm still doing the "old way" but a couple of newer projects, still in their early stages, that I'm doing the "new way". So a gradual transition.

 

The process, frankly, has been painful, mainly down to the fact that you don't fully discover the limitations of the software until you're actually trying to use it on a real project. Whereas previously I'd feel in full control of the drawings I output, using the new way, I haven't, which is disconcerting when you've got a live project. However, it's getting better.

 

The positives:

- Initially I found 3D modelling in VW frustrating and confusing, compared to sketchup. But, as I've got the hang of things, I've become a lot more fluent, and now feel that in terms of pure 3D modelling it's as good as or better than sketchup. It's improved quite a bit in the last few years. So, stick with it.

- I bought a 3Dconnexion 3D mouse. This is the single best investment I've made. Once you get the hang of it (I found it didn't take too long) it really makes a vast difference to the fluency of direct 3D modelling, as well as visualisation. Get one.

- Getting a grip on Renderworks has been worth it, particularly understanding that it's an integral part of the software rather than something you have to export to/from. Still quite a bit to learn but already it's improved the quality of what I can present to clients.

- Again regarding client presentation, having things properly in 3D is great. They like it. It's better for them than going through a series of 2D pages. So far I've just shown them direct in the VW in openGL view, and we can walk through and fly around and discuss everything. The best thing about it is that it means less tedious work for me! Instead of having to finalise the design work some time before a presentation, and then convert it into a series of 2D sheets that explain everything I want to, I can pretty much tweak the design until just before they walk through the door and we simply look straight at the 3D model. I'm going to take this further once I've proerly explored the capabilities of the new web vie service as well as the Nomad app which I've not really used before.

 

The negatives:

- so for me this is a big one: a really big one. In my opinion the software is fundamentally deficient in converting the 3D model into a set of 2D drawings (even at 1:100 or 1:50 scale), at least for the kind of work I do which involves existing buildings and lots of non-standard elements. Only a few parametric objects are really useful for me, and they all have limitations. You can use auto-hybrids to an extent but they have annoying features, for example it's difficult to move objects into and out of them. The best top/plan view I can generate needs lots of patching up to produce something presentable. Likewise elevations and sections need lots of patching up. I could go on. I think I might do a thread soon, where I'll show just how much patching up and working around is necessary for me to take the output from the 3D model and make it presentable. I'm not sure to what extent the folk at VW really understand what a problem this is. I really hope they can put some effort into fixing it.

- there's not really, as far as I can make out, a "standard" way to organise your drawing. In other words, VW don't say, this is how you should organise your classes and layers and objects and materials and then all our tools and auto-classing and so one will work in a clear and logical way. So you kind of have to work out your own system. I've found that time consuming and frustrating, and as I still haven't seen a project through to construction stage I haven't fully worked out how I'm going to organise detail drawings and so on. Also, I fear that at some point in the future, when I might want to share info in a more formalised BIM way, I'm going to find that there are problems with how I've got used to organising my info. Of course, some may say that the flexibility of VW is its strength - the fact that there's not a prescribed way to organise drawings. It does mean you can tailor things to suit your preferences and the kind of work you do. But I feel it's a bit more of an issue in a world where we are heading towards full BIM. I've not really got my head around this quite yet.

 

Anyway, in conclusion, I've started down this path, and I don't think I'm going back. But there are a lot of basic issues with the VW software that urgently need to be sorted out in order that we can really reap the potential efficiency benefits of working from an information-rich 3D model.

 

If you search for any threads I've started over the past year or so, you see a documentation of the issues I've come up against! Some of which have also been mentioned by others in this thread.

Edited by col37400
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Hi, I agree with you that the elevations and sections produced from the 3D model needs a lot of patching as the lines show where walls meet in butt join etc. Plans now I cant recall where I have used a patch in the plan, roof plan or site plan. I will use auto hybrids  to resolve any extrude or EAP objects. Double click and add other objects to the Auto hybrid and same to remove parts. I will often use 2D furniture for my plans and have a 3D OFF class for 2D. The more you learn the program and learn really how to use it the easier it becomes. I have people at work who just wont change and just complain about the program. Well now I get all the fun things to do and they are still doing the bathroom elevations.

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