Jump to content

New Export to Cinema 4D workflow


Recommended Posts

Hi,

I'll start by saying I'm not an architect working on buildings. :P In 2016 and previous, I build everything as a hybrid symbol.  Everything.  This lets me build a nice model and get a clean controlled 2D ground plan out of it.  I don't do any lighting or texturing in VW, just cinema4D.  I export the geometry to cinema and go to work.  Duplicated Symbols import as the 'master' and then the instances right below them (I usually group them before export).  Then texturing and object buffers are easy to control.

In 2017, if I check the Create instances of symbols - every symbol becomes and instance - even things that only appear once and the hidden symbol folder has all the symbols just stacked up on top of them selves out of place.  So now, doing texturing - lining up object buffers, minor geometry tweaks happen in blind (since the symbol null is hidden) and out of place.  If I uncheck make instance of symbols - then everything is just raw geometry, thus killing the efficiency.  I tend to make a lot of symbols inside of symbols (LED video tiles that make up larger walls)

I realize the workflow is designed to make transition from VW to Cinema easier if you are doing everything in VW and just rendering in cinema, but not all of us work that way :)  Is there any way to get back to the previous behavior.  I'm all for adjusting to a new workflow if it is beneficial, but in my case this seems a step backwards.  Does this make sense?  Anyone have any ideas on this?  Sorry for the long post - not clear how to communicate this best.

Thanks in advance,

e.

Edited by EAlexander
Link to comment

Hmmh, for me the new export is immensely important.

I think it is about the use of Symbols itself.
Symbols are used for Elements that appear in the same form for more than one time in a file.
So it is stored only one time + instances positions only. That is faster and better, VW as well as C4D.
And you only need to edit one object to edit all instances.

I think you are using Symbols and their ability to also include extra 2D information to circumference
that generated 2D from 3D Elements doesn't always appear on plans as expected.
Normally that is what an Auto hybrid is for. In theory an auto hybrid should be only needed for custom
geometry that has no "controlled" 2D appearance like Plugin Objects.
In Theory ...

Like in VW, you would edit the Symbol/Parent in C4D, to change all your instances. In VW from Ressource Manager.
Optionally in VW directly by editing an instance, which does not work in C4D. So to edit Instances you need to directly
select the Parent Object. And that works now much better by separating all Parents from the actual geometry,
in that special Folder than searching for these in Object Manager.
You would normally ignore that Folder completely, unless you want to edit a Symbol.

Symbols in VW live also in the Symbol Library, at the origin, only their Instances live on Design Layers,
sam as it visualizes now when imported to C4D.

That was my Question, no time to test so far - will these Symbol Imports to C4D will use their Symbol Folder Structure
when having many Symbols ?
If not, if wish that they will do in the future.

That should help you too.
So if you use your Symbols in such a creative way, from your side in C4D you would ignore the Geometry instead.
So all your interest happens in that Symbol Folder only. If this would include the right Structure and Grouping Hierarchy,
hat should not make much a difference to the former way of Export.
Or do I miss something:

I think when you use Geometry in Symbols only, you will have/need an intelligent Structure for your Symbols in VW too (?)

Edited by zoomer
Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hi EAlexander,

The major difference about the symbols and instances between the new export and the old one is that, in the old version we were treating the first instance of a symbol as the definition of the symbol and now we are putting all the symbol definitions under the Symbols null and making them invisible in the scene. Other than this, there's not a difference in how they behave.
If you wanted to change something about a group of instances, you can just go change the symbol definition under the Symbols header and all the instances that are linked to it will change as well.

In addition to this, if you wanted to have your symbol definition visible in the scene, you can toggle the small dots on the right side of the object to green and the symbol will be visible at the origin of your model.

Hope this helps :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Yes thanks for the explanation - I'm clear on how it works - I just prefer the older method of organization.  What is great about symbols in VW is that you can click on any of them to jump into edit mode and you can do that in the context of the rest of your design (Show other objects while in edit mode).  In the older C4D transfer method - while yes, you have to modify the parent - it is listed inline in the object manager with the instances and the organization of the whole drawing is unaffected - not to mention the actual symbol parent is in the correct xyz world space so you can work it in context.  How often do we have to modify things completely isolated vs. in relation to the objects around them?  You say I can view it in the origin of my model, but I can't view it in the proper context of my design while editing.  Mostly it is organizing texture tags and object buffer tags that will be affected.  The new methods change that a lot - it was just a surprise to me as I didn't see any deficit to this behavior in the previous versions and don't quite understand the benefits of this new line of thinking.  That said - I appreciate that interplay is being addressed overall and I realize it may just me being too set in my ways of working. Time will tell.  I'm still grumpy :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Selin said:

now we are putting all the symbol definitions under the Symbols null and making them invisible in the scene.

And that is unbelievably gorgeous ...


And still we have to solve the problem for EAlexander.

 

38 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

What is great about symbols in VW is that you can click on any of them to jump into edit mode and you can do that in the context of the rest of your design (Show other objects while in edit mode).

Yes that is really great. Symbols work really great in VW.
 

38 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

In the older C4D transfer method - while yes, you have to modify the parent - it is listed inline in the object manager with the instances and the organization of the whole drawing is unaffected - not to mention the actual symbol parent is in the correct xyz world space so you can work it in context.
....
Mostly it is organizing texture tags and object buffer tags that will be affected.  The new methods change that a lot - it was just a surprise to me as I didn't see any deficit to this behavior in the previous versions

That is indeed an issue now for you, I got it.

 

42 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

How often do we have to modify things completely isolated vs. in relation to the objects around them?

Unfortunately, for example, when we're in Slab Sub Object Editing Mode ...

 

48 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

You say I can view it in the origin of my model, but I can't view it in the proper context of my design while editing.  Mostly it is organizing texture tags and object buffer tags that will be affected. 

Hmmh. Just some ideas.
Editing geometry in C4D : Editing Parent in 4 Window's orthographic Views while examining Instances in Shaded Camera View ?
Editing Geometry always in VW and Model Refresh (My long time target) ?
Exporting by Textures Option to be able to organize textures for all objects with that one material, if that make sense in your case.

 

1 hour ago, EAlexander said:

I realize it may just me being too set in my ways of working. Time will tell.  I'm still grumpy :)

To not get me wrong with my first post.
I think you did something wrong, from a CAD perspective.
I don't know your projects and workflow. I would never say anything like you personally did anything wrong.
From a moral perspective you even did everything fine. You are creative and a found the best way to get your work done.
In this case working with Symbols.

So I think it is good to first try to find solutions so that the new Exchange workflow hasn't any negative impacts on your workflow.
It is not bad to rethink a workflow in a changed environment, which potentially includes also possibilities to find an even
better overall workflow, in a second step either.
(And it is ok to be grumpy - if there is a reason :) )

 

And, I am totally curious to understand you workflow with the Symbols now.
if you don't mind sharing some screenshots or so ....


 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 1 month later...

Thanks for following up.  For the time,  I am sticking with 2016. Besides the new workflow issues.   I have found 2017 very unstable on my system and just mystery crashes/closes. I haven't had time around project work to really investigate or look into causes,  behaviors,  and/or bug reports.  I've thought through the new workflow a fair amount,  but haven't made peace with it yet and am frankly,  quite frustrated. I know I need to just roll up my sleeves and work it out when I have a bit more breathing room. 

Link to comment

Yes, in VW 2017 there came some additions that are not in a state a user would expect.

So some of the new features I will just ignore at that state.

 

I came back because I am still a bit embarrassed that,

finally these new export options that I loudly wished for so long and finally make VW productive for me,

did in fact destroy your, and maybe some others, workflows.

 

Before 2017 I had to renounce of most typical VW CAD features like Symbols or Materials by Classes.

No I can use everything again and still get my projects out of VW in a useful way.

So I would feel much better if their could be found some solutions to make VW 2017 C4D Exchange

working for you too.

 

 

 So after playing a while, here are some hints what could work and what not :

 

"I build everything as a hybrid symbol.  Everything.  This lets me build a nice model and get a clean controlled 2D ground plan out of it. Every symbol becomes and instance - even things that only appear once and the hidden symbol folder has all the symbols just stacked up on top of them selves out of place. "

 

So you now have many many Symbols in that single C4D Symbols Folder. Hard to find again as C4D

has no alphabetical sorting. Options are :

- Filter Objects by name from Objects List

- Use Layer Separation to only show one or more Layers (by activating the first dot in Layer Manager)

(Note, Instances of Symbols haven't assigned any Layer in C4D ! That was my problem before 2017)

 

 

"Duplicated Symbols import as the 'master' and then the instances right below them (I usually group them before export). Then texturing and object buffers are easy to control."

 

That does not work anymore. Options are :

- Choose "all Material Tags and ..." from Material Manager for that Material, to edit Mappings or

edit or change Assignments in one go for all.

- Filter Options mentioned above

 

 

"In 2017, if I check the Create instances of symbols -   So now, doing texturing - lining up object buffers, minor geometry tweaks happen in blind (since the symbol null is hidden) and out of place. "

 

If you have found your Symbol in the Object list of the Folder set to invisible,

temporarily set that Symbol from default to "Visible in Viewport" will overwrite the visibility parent from Folder

and makes (only) your current Symbol visible. Set back to default after editing.

 

 

"If I uncheck make instance of symbols - then everything is just raw geometry, thus killing the efficiency.  I tend to make a lot of symbols inside of symbols (LED video tiles that make up larger walls)"

 

In the new 2017 Mode, nested Symbols will no more work that way.

If I see that correct, C4D makes a simple Symbol with normal geometry from all former nested component

Symbols. I think these even won't appear itself in the Folder, if not used exclusively somewhere else.

I think most times this is not such an issue, besid you would use such a component Symbol nested

into 25 other Symbols and need to edit it everywhere.

 

 

"I realize the workflow is designed to make transition from VW to Cinema easier if you are doing everything in VW and just rendering in cinema, but not all of us work that way :)"

 

I don't think so. It would be nice if compatibility went so far that it is possible to do everything in VW

or even it would not matter at all where you do things.

I have a basic Viz Setup in VW to show clients nice intermediate screenshots.

But in practice all Entourage, Light, Camera or Render Settings happens in C4D from scratch.

Maybe I use some of the imported stuff to make copies but finally switch of all Background,

Lights and Camera Folders from the import.

So VW is just about Geometry and Material Assignments only.

As that Exchange works quite reliably, wouldn't it possible for you to limit any geometry changes

to VW only and do a geometry refresh to C4D after ?

 

 

"Is there any way to get back to the previous behavior.  I'm all for adjusting to a new workflow if it is beneficial, but in my case this seems a step backwards."

 

I can't imagine why there should not be an legacy option to "Export Symbols the old way" but

would not expect that to happen (soon)

 

Edited by zoomer
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...