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What is the difference between copy-paste and duplicate?

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What is the difference between copy-paste and duplicate? And do the differences only matter depending on exactly what you're replicating?

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Copy-paste allows you to copy the object from one location and paste it in another. The paste is usually centered on the last click. Duplicate will copy the object and leave it on top of the original object, or move it up to the right, depending on your preference settings. 

 

http://learn.archoncad.com/2010/10/460/offset-duplications-or-duplicate-in-place/

 

 

 

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They are similar.  

If you do not have "Offset Duplicates" selected - the duplicate tool is like copying and pasting in place all in one operation.

Copy and Paste In Place is a little more powerful as  the object is copied to the clipboard.  This allows you to then paste the object "in place" any place you want, such as on another layer - or even in another document and maintain the object's position about the origin.  Duplicate does not copy the object to the clip board. 

 

Edited by Tom Klaber

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Just now, Matt Overton said:

If you don't have offset duplicate turned on go and do that now! 

NOOO!  If duplicates offset - the command becomes almost useless.  Duplicated objects almost always have a direct relationship to the object you are duplicating.  A quick CMD-M, CMD-L, or CMD-V can get you what you need but that only works when you know the location of the object you are creating... just be careful....

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18 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

NOOO!  If duplicates offset - the command becomes almost useless.  Duplicated objects almost always have a direct relationship to the object you are duplicating.  A quick CMD-M, CMD-L, or CMD-V can get you what you need but that only works when you know the location of the object you are creating... just be careful....

So very true Tom. I NEVER turn offset duplicates on. 

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Move by Points (shift M) is better in those situations as the zoom in to the end points get you better control of snapping at each end. Plus it has all the array options I need when I don't already know offsets I need. 

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My pennies worth. For me it comes down to the speed of what I am doing. Often I need to duplicate an item when working in 3D then move in the Z direction 3M. So CltD and Clt + Alt +M by 3m i find quick.

Edited by Alan Woodwell
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I have many but no other App that uses CMD+D.
It is all CMD+C + CMD+V which is paste IN PLACE.

VW Move by Points (in itself, beside the number issue) is ok.
VW CMD+ALT+V is also ok (in itself) except you need extra key


But what is the point of VW CMD+V, when you can set a definite point to paste to,
but there is no definite point that sets a suitable origin for the object's from ?

Second, how often do use that NOT IN PLACE Option ?
I never use it.
And because to not confuse with other Apps I don't CMD+D but always leave my mouse
to use 2-hand action needing CMD+ALT+V 

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51 minutes ago, zoomer said:

I have many but no other App that uses CMD+D.
It is all CMD+C + CMD+V which is paste IN PLACE.

VW Move by Points (in itself, beside the number issue) is ok.
VW CMD+ALT+V is also ok (in itself) except you need extra key


But what is the point of VW CMD+V, when you can set a definite point to paste to,
but there is no definite point that sets a suitable origin for the object's from ?

Second, how often do use that NOT IN PLACE Option ?
I never use it.
And because to not confuse with other Apps I don't CMD+D but always leave my mouse
to use 2-hand action needing CMD+ALT+V 

I use it all the time.  If I am copying an object to another place in the drawing I click where I want the object and then paste it down.  If I were to paste in place it might paste in some place off screen.  I paste not in place more often then I paste in place.

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I'm not sure what's wrong with offset duplications, I use them all the time. If I want a copy of the object directly on top of the original, why not option-click or ctrl-click on the object? 

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Offsetting duplications is GOOD but you have to know how the function thinks. The (ill-documented) trick is that the offset vector of the Duplicate command depends on whatever distance and direction you last duplicated an object via clicking and dragging (that is, Alt-Drag on a Mac or Ctrl+Drag on Windows).

For example, to draw a side view of some stairs, draw the rise and run of one step. Then hold Alt [or Ctrl] and drag-duplicate this first step to be the second step. Now the "Duplicate" vector is set, and you can simply hit Cmd+D [or Ctrl+D] to create more steps with the Duplicate command.

 

Edited by Andy Broomell
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10 hours ago, Tom Klaber said:

I use it all the time.  If I am copying an object to another place in the drawing I click where I want the object and then paste it down.  If I were to paste in place it might paste in some place off screen.  I paste not in place more often then I paste in place.

I don't get it.
Beside maybe distributing Plants, all my elements have a special and wanted Position.
Maybe Symbols have a useful "center" point. But most normal geometry has an useless arbitrary
center origin which will be used to place to the "last click" position when CMD+V without +ALT.
So the copy will be only "near" the position I will have it and have to orient it again.

There is ALT+Drag if there are available snapping points or to distribute things arbitrarily if needed
to place things "about" where you need them when zoomed out largely.

 

4 hours ago, Jonathan Pickup said:

I'm not sure what's wrong with offset duplications, I use them all the time. If I want a copy of the object directly on top of the original, why not option-click or ctrl-click on the object? 

Offset duplication for me is useless and disturbing in 95% of cases.
It just prevents forgotten element duplicates. The new position is again arbitrary in most cases.
The most simplest thing always done anywhere else outside of VW is that the CMD+V Copy sits
at the same position as the original element - so you know and can be sure about its current
position and can reposition from there, in a controlled and predictable manner.

It is just very handy in that shown special case where you you want to repeat that "Move by Points"
action. Especially in the case when you want to do a multiple copy "Move by Point" action but
"don't know" the amount of duplicates before you want to duplicate.
Could be easily done more predictable with a serious "Move by Points" Tool anyway.
Currently it's always a, I will need "at least" 40 multiplier + delete the unnecessary last 7 copies, action.
Could have a preview and dynamic multiplier nevertheless.

 

From a VW-only point of view it is bearable that CMD+V does something strange, as there is the
CMD+D option. Just not nice in collaboration with all other related software.
No problem if a Software goes it own ways to allow doing something better. But for me most
of VW's proprietary ways of doing things are not better, less predictable, unergonomic and often
more tedious.
That it for endless things like keyboard/mouse acrobatic when Drag + numerical distance input,
"Move by Points" using multiplier option in move only = non copy mode,

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The disagreement in this thread on whether offset duplications should be on or off is exactly why it is left as a preference ;)

Regarding Duplicate vs Copy/Paste FUNCTIONALLY the resulting object (regardless of its new location) should be the same when created with either command. If anyone ever finds this not to be the case, let me know, that's a bug. This happened I think with Floor objects for awhile where the object would change with Duplicate but not with Copy/Paste.

Duplicate is the root of a lot of more complex commands like Duplicate Array or Duplicate Along Path, as to why it exists separately from copy/paste. Copy/paste of course being a standard OS convention that must be included.

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I'm still convinced there is a complete mess, inconsistency and contradiction in all those basic tools like
Drag, Move by Points, Copy+Paste, Duplicate.
From an outside of VW view that's the reason for me why people at the end use these in a wrong way.
Now they got used to it since many years, got their work done, and therefore think that it's right.

I see no real reason for the Offset Paste Setting.
That is all done without more clicks or shortcuts by an intelligent Copy Tool.
I don't even see a need for Copy+Paste actions in a CAD Software at all as long it is file intern.
Maybe only if you exchange things between files or even from other software.

 

The Drag Tool by all means is a Freehand Tool mainly.
If it can also Snap, fine. So it is now the Turbo Fast Grab and Pick There Tool.
If its has an additional ALT Copy Option, fine.
If it has also numerical distance input option, fine.
But please in the way that it is not necessary to start input Numbers BEFORE you can leave the mouse button.
And make sure that, if an element is already selected, as long as you grab on points on that Element and not
somewhere completely else, KEEP that selection and don't switch to any another element while dragging,
just because for VW it may look "nearer", more "in Front" or more appropriate.

That ALT Drag Tool can do that Offset CMD+V and put copies "anywhere" except where it was.

 

A Copy Tool (which Move by Points could be)
Does not need an extra CTRL to select elements if there was no selection because in that case there isn't any
reason to exist for that tool. So if no Selection and Move by Points active - it is just a Selection Tool.
It can be needed a STRG to change the selection while using MbP, but it could also be just something like a
single ESC to drop the selection and activate the Selection Mode again.

The Copy Toll is no one-way Tool. It stays actives and produces a copy wich each following "to next position" click
(Copy Tool does => Offset CMD+D)
until the user does a single ESC to escape one tool level to re-activate a new "from origin" position.
So first ESC escape from "continuous mode" back to from "here to there mode", second ESC to even drop selection.

The Copy Tool will give you exactly the last distance used as a temporary Snap Point Option, so no Offset CMD+D
keystroke needed, just another click.

(Like Any Tools) the Copy Tool will automatically read the cursor direction given by the user and will use
the numeric input as a relative distance in that direction and therefore needs no negative inputs and also
never again any DOUBLE ENTERs.

And I the cursor is moved in Y-direction, it is self understanding that the next numeric input will automatically
be placed in the Y-Axis input field and never in an X input fields just because it is the first input field available.

The Copy Tool (like Array or Copy along Path) will have a dynamic Preview and allow to play with Distances
and Multipliers, to finally kill any need of Offset CMD+D.

I still prefer to have to separate Tools for Copy and Move Tool as for me it is much easier to do automated motoric
actions in simple, restricted and reliable tools than the need to concentrate on complex multi usage tools.
But if no common sense, why not press an ALT to prevent the Copy Tool from copying and just move. Just kidding.

But in any case, please deactivate that multiplier number in any Move Mode. Or zero multiplier in Copy Mode.
(Has someone already tried what will happen if you set negative numbers in the multiplier field for copying,
maybe at least as dangerous as typing "Google" into Google)
 

For me the CMD+D hasn't anything to do with complex Tools like Array or Copy along Path.
It is just a workaround for a simple PASTE as the usual Paste doesn't work as expected.

 

Sorry for that never ending and redundant rant on this in many threads, starting with my VW start
in 2014 - but there weren't any improvements so far.
And the initial question of the thread starter already answered in detail already.

Edited by zoomer

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This is an interesting thread. I use Duplicate (offset off), Paste and Paste in Place all the time. Examples of how I use each -

- Duplicate is usually used in building shapes. Say I wanted to extrude a tube. Draw a circle. Duplicate and while its still selected, change the radius or diameter in the OIP to a slightly smaller measurement. Select the other circle. Clip surface. Delete. Select the donut and extrude. (I could use the Offset tool but that requires changing tools....)

- Copy/Paste is used when I easily want to grab the duplicate to move it to another location. Paste means it won't be on top of the original.

- Copy/Paste in Place - to move objects between layers or files while maintaining position. Or to move something while I work on something else and then return it back.

One of the most powerful features of VW is that undo doesn't undo the clipboard. I love this feature. One thing I hate is that Paste in Place is now fraught with peril when editing inside certain objects - extrudes, mirrored objects, profiles for sweeps or EAPs. In these instances it almost never does what you want. Even straight Paste often pastes objects way off the screen which I feel is very BAD (broken as designed).

I constantly use Move and Move3d as well. Move by Points is great except it has serious limitations in a 3d view.

@Andy Broomellthat's a great tip about Duplicate with offset on. When I think of Duplicate of offset on I think of the old preference where the offset was set by a measurement in the preferences. Clearly that feature wasn't given much fanfare when it was upgraded :)

I find that the VW logic actually makes a lot of sense as it mirrors old Mac behaviour (eg. Command Y used to be redo in a lot of software until everything became Windows compatible). Adobe Products like Illustrator have a similarly separate key combinations for Paste and Paste in Place.......

Kevin

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Move by Points is really important to me.  Mainly because the move by drag with the Select Tool often results in multiple attempts to prevent the rescale feature (arrow) from overriding the drag feature (cross).  Yes, I adjust the capture pref time to be optimal for my mousing ability.

Cut/Copy/Paste/Paste in Place with key commands are constant companions in my work.

Just added a Like to Andy Bromwell's tip.

Note to Vectorworks Inc - There is a wished mythical-does-everything Super Selection Tool (model is the Subdivision tool cursor) that may or may not be implemented (soon?). I'm up for alternate methods and combo tools, but when they are introduced, please leave the old tools in legacy status for at least a few versions while I warm up to the new workflow.

-B

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5 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Move by Points is great except it has serious limitations in a 3d view.

Kevin

That is because an Axis Lock is missing software wide and there is no 2,5D Snap Option for orthographic views.
But this relates to all (manipulation or creation) tools.

I always Paste "in Place" only.
Because like you I need duplicates for things like your Pipe Example with Thickness or to copy Objects to use on
other Stories Heights.

Every "Paste Somewhere Else Action" is done by Move by Points or Drag Tool for me.
And only Drag Tool because Move by Points Tool is .... as it is.
In over 10 years of Microstation I never used the Drag Tool or Pasting, other than to a special Selection. Because there
was simply no need to use anything else than Copy or Move Tool. Dragging means just to not care about snapping.
Yes, Drag Tool means 1 click less. But that doesn't count much for me when you have already automized that click+click.
And all the UIOP "make-Move-Tool-temporary-Copy-Tool", Multipliers and other paraphernalia was available by the only
floating, small Palette directly near your cursor.

VW Drag Tool is critical because you cramp to not lose the LMB hold when trying to zoom by scroll wheel at the same
time. That is why you decide for the tedious Move by Points tools at the end in such situations. Do your first click and be
safe to not lose your element while fighting with getting the new (2D) position, without losing your Z.

 

2 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

Mainly because the move by drag with the Select Tool often results in multiple attempts to prevent the rescale feature (arrow) from overriding the drag feature (cross).  Yes, I adjust the capture pref time to be optimal for my mousing ability.

-B

That is another problem that you will always feel being in the wrong Multi Tool option,
Move only Mode to be sure, but therefore renounce of Boundary Editing at all ?
I like to use Drag Tool in Top Plane View because I learned that I can be sure that Drag Tool in TPV will never move in Z.
I'm not so sure about Move by Points Tool.
Or did I misunderstood something and maybe both will fail in a standard 2D Top View ?

Edited by zoomer

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As for the CMD+Y Redo,

i have to admit that there was a long dark area when I was a Windows user. But even since
i finally switched to the good Mac side, I also never had any App that would not use CMD+SHIFT+Z
for Undoing an Undo.
The only Exceptions I know that use CMD+Y are VW and C4D.

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Who knew copy/paste could be such a topic for discussion.

 

My brain is still wired in many ways to how I used Autocad for so many years.

They have a right click function that gets you to pick the object you wish to be copied and then set an insertion point you select with your mouse.

So when you paste your object copied it is floating around attached at the insertion point you selected ready to be set where you like.

Considering all the options that have been discussed above do any of them work in a similar fashion to what I described? Or would this be a good wishlist item?

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I think this is a good idea.
As it solves the arbitrary position problem of CMD+V.
Beside that nice preview is just the function of how the Place Symbol Tool works already.

(As far as I remember Microstation also had a more complicated "Special Paste" option,
mainly used for objects that come from outside. Never had much need to use it)

But isn't that just the Workflow of the Move by Points Tool already ?
1. Select Element
2. Set insertion point
3. Set Position to insert

 

I think I still need help to understand for what purpose exactly and in which conditions
people use CMD+V, without ALT,
more often than CMD+ALT+V or CMD+D

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You control where CMD-V will place the pasted copy by left clicking on the place you want it to be pasted first. If you don't click near any snapping points it should place the center of the object right at the click locations, but having things like Snap to Grid turned on or clicking near a snap point will usually make the object appear on that snapped point.

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11 minutes ago, JimW said:

You control where CMD-V will place the pasted copy by left clicking on the place you want it to be pasted first.

Thanks Jim,
I think understand how CMD+V works.

But I argue that Object Center only as an insertion point is a pretty useless point in the majority of cases.
An the end your Objects will be pasted arbitrarily just near the point you need them and have to finally
position them in a second step.

So if your not pasting elements that work that way, like maybe circles or things that need no exact position
like plants, you would also need an option to set a insertion point first before setting the target point.
Which is exactly what the Move by Points Tool does.

As users said they use CMD+V without ALT more often than a paste in (same) place,
I try to understand what's their specific workflow where it makes more sense to do so.

 

 

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Yes, if you needed to specify the point, Move by Points or alt/opt-drag makes more sense. Multiple options and tools for multiple use cases.

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Maybe there is something I forgot or don't know yet.

Beside things like I'm just used to do so for many years, which is a also valid reason,
maybe it really is a more convenient way to accept that placement precision loss for other reasons.
Like finding it easier to do a simple CMD+C, zoom out, click, CMD+V to bring your Copy "somewhere"
to the other side of your site, and in a second step zoom back in and concentrate on exact placement.

As this is something that the Drag Tool with ALT can't do.
If you zoom out before dragging you will risk to drag a wrong element,
if you zoom while dragging, you risk to interrupt drag.
And maybe some don't like to use Move by Points for other reasons.

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