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Bas Vellekoop

Overhaul of classes and better implementation of surface hatches

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Past week I was working on a project where i needed to use surface hatches.
I think it can be implemented beter. When i was thinking about this i realized its 'bigger' then only the surface hatch part.
To be honest i think there should be an overhaul of how classes work an what you can do with them.

In general classes should have to ability to work as materials.
This would mean you would create a class for every material with al the specifications needed (including R-ratings and other properties like weight/m3 etc.)

With the new forum its easier to look for previous comments and discussions about this. I will included these because some things i borrowed from there.

MOCKUP AND WISHES:

  • ability to create 1 material / classes that you can set to use different settings for different scale.
    When you create a viewport (1:10) on a sheet layer that's different then the scale on your design layer (1:50) it automatically uses the properties of 1:10 instead of 1:50
    This option could work as class overrides do now, but more automated.
     
  • For every material you can set Lambda values so you don't have to do that in your wall style. The wall styles gets the options to use the values from your class or material or just use a different value.
    This should work like the attributes palette works: it can be set by classes, but it doesn't have too.
     
  • Ability to use hatches and tiles in surface hatches. (I'm never been able to create in a simple way a hatch as I can with tiles)
     
  • I don't like how hatches work together with textures. I think this should be 2 separate things that can work together but don't have to.
    It should not be part or your renderworks texture but something you can set separate.
    Beside that I think its confusing that you have a scale for the hatch in your recourse browser, as well in the renderworks edit texture.
    At the moment if you change the scale of your resource it changes in the renderworks texure as well. In someway this is logic but it worked unexpected for me.
     
  • You should be able to change in % the scale of your hatch in the class/material without editing the resource in the resource browser.
     
  • For a section and a surface we should be able to set different hatches without overrides, so lets split that up in different options.
    I wanna set the pen, fill, hatch, opacity, scale, thickness separately for:
    • sections
    • plans
    • elevations

Materials and or classes.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Bas Vellekoop
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I believe this is very much the direction we should go. I have often seen, even from our own Industry Specialists, setting up two separate classing systems, one for organization and another for material/appearance control. This works but often doubles the number of classes, forces you to use only objects that can have separate component/part classes from the overall class and increases the possibility for making mistakes. 

@Wes Gardnermay have something to say on this as well, but this seems to be a good mockup of how it should work at least as far as my uses go.

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34 minutes ago, Bas Vellekoop said:

ability to create 1 material / classes that you can set to use different settings for different scale.
When you create a viewport (1:10) on a sheet layer that's different then the scale on your design layer (1:50) it automatically uses the properties of 1:10 instead of 1:50
This option could work as class overrides do now, but more automated.

That would be useful, it's a bit like annotative scaling in AutoCAD and the likes, though I would like to have the option of not using this in an automated way as I do at times have hatches that need to scale with the viewport because they are based on real world dimensions and at times hatches that are page unit based where the scale difference should not be taken into account.

38 minutes ago, Bas Vellekoop said:

For a section and a surface we should be able to set different hatches without overrides, so lets split that up in different options.
I wanna set the pen, fill, hatch, opacity, scale, thickness separately for:

  • sections
  • plans
  • elevations

Yes, this is very useful for 3D. Also for this I would like to have an option added, i.e. to use the "old style"  way of assigning class properties for 2D only drawings to reduce the " clutter"  caused by having multiple settings that are useful for 3D but not used in 2D only.

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+1 for the Building Material System.

Currently you have to repeat the steps if you create a new Wall/Slab Style.
(Set Class, Energos,  ....)

+1 for scale dependent appearance.

(Including 2D geometrical appearance)

 

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Materials would be great.  I am not on board with materials having line weights, but I do see how it could get confusing if attributes are being controlled by material or class. These would tie in nicely with wall and slab components.  

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And don't forget that I want to group Classes/Layers in Sub Folders,
assign colors to the text background,
drag and drop Layer Stack order everywhere, not just at picking the stacking number field only,
(Same UI Window/Capabilities like Ressource Manager for all Navigation Palette Entries ?)
and be able to set real lock, do not RW Render, freeze, ....

 

:)
 

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18 minutes ago, Art V said:

Assigning a colour to the text background can be done in text styles, but it could be nice to be able do this in the class properties,

I meant something like this, for class/layer names in Navigation Palette :

 

 

Screenshot-11.jpg

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8 hours ago, JimW said:

I believe this is very much the direction we should go. I have often seen, even from our own Industry Specialists, setting up two separate classing systems, one for organization and another for material/appearance control. This works but often doubles the number of classes, forces you to use only objects that can have separate component/part classes from the overall class and increases the possibility for making mistakes. 

@Wes Gardnermay have something to say on this as well, but this seems to be a good mockup of how it should work at least as far as my uses go.

Have to say very much in Favour of having a Materials system either as an improvement to all classes or as a standalone system. Although first reaction was having that many settings per class might be too much given 80% of time plan and section are the same attributes.

I think there is another way to solve this specific problem and would be very useful for streamlining class use generally.  That is allow class attributes to be defined "by another Class".  Then you could have a set of material classes and a set of use/organization class. Say I'm using dress timber in a few places in the building say Kitchen Bench and Wall panelling, General arrangement drawings I'd still want to show the bench but not the wall panelling to avoid muddiness on the drawing.  Client comes in for meeting and we change the timber selection. To give them feedback I could then override one material class and the render would update everywhere I use that material.

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5 hours ago, Art V said:

Yes, this is very useful for 3D. Also for this I would like to have an option added, i.e. to use the "old style"  way of assigning class properties for 2D only drawings to reduce the " clutter"  caused by having multiple settings that are useful for 3D but not used in 2D only.

@Art V

Agreed, in Cinema4D you have for the sketch and toon settings a simple, intermediate and advanced 'mode' to change settings.
For VW simple it could be as it is now, and advanced would be with all the settings for sections, elevations etc.

Or maybe there should be a selection box to turn on specific settings for the different options (elevation / section / plan): for this material I only want to use 'classic VW style' and not those for elevation, but I do turn on the settings for plans and sections.

1 hour ago, Tom Klaber said:

Materials would be great.  I am not on board with materials having line weights, but I do see how it could get confusing if attributes are being controlled by material or class. These would tie in nicely with wall and slab components.  

@Tom Klaber

Curious: how is having line weights for materials/classes different from how you work now?
I'm used to work with specific classes for specifics components in walls and floors etc. So a class for the concrete and a class for the insulation.  By doing this they have already a line weight assigned to them and in my case I only get more control over that for the different presentation scales.

Edited by Bas Vellekoop
another thought on the comlexy and control of classes

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@Bas Vellekoop

True.  Classes currently control line weight and classes are currently used to control wall components.  Though, for me, line weights are a 2D drawing convention used to depict depth, and so having fixed line weights for things that could be used in different circumstances does not make sense to me.  When the class is a wall component class, I know precisely what I am controlling with the line weight setting.  If it is a material that could be used in a variety of ways  - in a wall or as shown in the video above applied to a generic solid  - the line weight by material makes less sense. 

I have asked for this before - but really line weights should be a variable applied attribute that shifts depending on the prodjection and camera position - not an inherent attribute of the class or 'material'.

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

And don't forget that I want to group Classes/Layers in Sub Folders,
assign colors to the text background,
drag and drop Layer Stack order everywhere, not just at picking the stacking number field only,
(Same UI Window/Capabilities like Ressource Manager for all Navigation Palette Entries ?)
and be able to set real lock, do not RW Render, freeze, ....

Assigning a colour to the text background can be done in text styles, but it could be nice to be able do this in the class properties, e.g. when you have a text class for generic texts that do not use a style. If that would be implemented then I think it should have tick box to select whether this should override text style backgrounds or not.

Regarding grouping of classes/layers in subfolders, that would be nice too, as that would allow us to move classes/layers to a different subfolder at a later stage instead of having to rename hierarchies in the class names.

Proper locking of individual classes/layers is something that would be really useful. Setting the view to only Show others or Gray others is not always a convenient workaround.

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12 hours ago, Tom Klaber said:

@Bas Vellekoop

I have asked for this before - but really line weights should be a variable applied attribute that shifts depending on the prodjection and camera position - not an inherent attribute of the class or 'material'.

Agreed, but maybe that should be something that is controlled in the viewport options under the advanced button, like merging adjacent components with same fill class.
If could give the different classes another 'outline' in some sort of way.

11 hours ago, zoomer said:

And don't forget that I want to group Classes/Layers in Sub Folders,
assign colors to the text background,
drag and drop Layer Stack order everywhere, not just at picking the stacking number field only,
(Same UI Window/Capabilities like Ressource Manager for all Navigation Palette Entries ?)
and be able to set real lock, do not RW Render, freeze, ....

 

:)
 

+1 ;)

8 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

Have to say very much in Favour of having a Materials system either as an improvement to all classes or as a standalone system. Although first reaction was having that many settings per class might be too much given 80% of time plan and section are the same attributes.

The difference between plans and sections is most of the times not that big, true, but I like the idea of having more control over it.
If there is a system of turning on-and-off options/complexity like in C4D then we can choose which of the class settings we want to use:

  • only the general old style with 1 fill, 1 pen, and 1 texture,
  • or more complex with a different section style and/or elevation style with the different options for pens, fills etc. 

Rather have the option and don't use in 80% procent of the times then figuring out a workaround for the other 20% of times

8 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

I think there is another way to solve this specific problem and would be very useful for streamlining class use generally.  That is allow class attributes to be defined "by another Class".  Then you could have a set of material classes and a set of use/organization class. Say I'm using dress timber in a few places in the building say Kitchen Bench and Wall panelling, General arrangement drawings I'd still want to show the bench but not the wall panelling to avoid muddiness on the drawing.  Client comes in for meeting and we change the timber selection. To give them feedback I could then override one material class and the render would update everywhere I use that material.

I don't know if I like this concept. Its a bit like changing the scale of a hatch in the resource browser that is used in a RW-texture. It is logic that they both change but I can give unexpected results if you don't keep track where and how they are used.
In my case I would have a different class for the bench and the wall paneling. The whole kitchen (bench, kabinents, countertops) would have a general class (or sit in a group with a general class) so I can turn it on and off completely, and the materials in the kitchen would have there own class so I can change the appereance/materials.
The same for the wall paneling, a general class for the wall and a specific one for paneling 'inside' this class.

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20 hours ago, zoomer said:

I meant something like this, for class/layer names in Navigation Palette :

 

 

Screenshot-11.jpg

Ah, now I get what you mean. yes that would be useful to have as I often have multiple classes with subclasses that are tied to a certain functionality in the drawing. E.g. road, river and railroad classes could then be indicated as infrastucture items with a colour so that they are easier to find.
+1 for that request (I'll also upvote it)

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18 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

I think there is another way to solve this specific problem and would be very useful for streamlining class use generally.  That is allow class attributes to be defined "by another Class".

Even though I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to achieve, this could make things very complex for others to use if they are not familiar with your system.

Plus the "issue"  of backward compatibility with older versions of Vectorworks. I can see the use for this, but am also a bit hesitant to see it implemented because you have to keep track of all of it as Bas mentioned.

Before you know someone is controlling a secondary class with another class so that you would have a 3rd class in the mix. Oh the joy that would give ;)

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