Whats the point of layer scale?

[jcaia]

I started using VW when it was MiniCad and mostly worked in 3D. Then we didn't have "sheets" etc, so scale and paper size for the layers was important.

Fast forward to today in V.2016 I am left wondering why we still have scales for the layers when we end up setting scales for the views we want on sheets.

Shouldn't we be working in the main layers in 1:1 scale like so many BIM apps?

[zoomer]

I think that is legacy stuff.

I don't like it either.

I tried to work in 1:1 some time ago but realized that had so many drawbacks

that made it impractical. Can't remeber exactly was it was.

I think zooming/fit view issues when switching between design and sheet layers

and some more things.

So I draw again in an 1:100 or 1:50 scale.

I think that DL scale is needed to check line weights if visibility enabled (?)

Even more strange that you can have different DL scales at one time when

deactivating unified view and that there are people using this.

Would be nice if people could elaborate here which are the things exactly

that prevent from drawing in 1:1.

[HEengineering]

Zoomer- Thats actually how we operate. While we do have the occasional project for 3d work, most of what we do is 2D. Several layers on a saved view. The industry we work in just doesn't justify the workflow of 3D or BIM. The clients don't want it don't need it.

For this reason I hope VW considers not all users are always operating in 3D and viewports. Sometimes simplicity wins for the sake of simplicity.

I personally like the 3D and those jobs usually land on my desk because of it, but sometimes it can be really tuff explaining the work flows to others, or getting the desired results.

It is apparent that VW is making a push with webinars to try and inform its user base better on the best practices and workflows, its definitely long awaited and well received if you ask me.

Just thought Id toss In my 2 cents on this one because i know alot of users think this workflow is archaic, but thats what I love about VW as well. It can take you from basic 2d drawings all the way to the most advanced 3D models.

[zoomer]

Zoomer- Thats actually how we operate.

Ha, you say that you are the ONE that uses deactivated unified view

[OT]

No problem with a 2D only approach.

And I am really happy with the VW 2D Tool Part.

It is obvious that in current state working in 3D BIM will not bring your 2D plans.

So there are a lot of reasons, beside refusing change in workflows, that many

go on working in 2D. Your Mileage (or App) may vary.

I think the future will be improved BIM Tools that can do all tasks AND the

disappearance of 2D plans at all.

BIM can give gives you some basic plans as an underlay only and a lot more

flexibility and automation for project changes. Currently at a quite low level

of detail only.

So if you still have to do a lot of 2D, it may be better and more understandable

in many cases to do all 2D. Even in 3D, VW parametrical 3D Arch Tools can be

limiting that it would be faster to completely model with 3D Solids only in some

cases at the end.

BTW, here in Europe the clients already demand BIM planning in most cases.

[/OT]

So to better understand your workflow,

1.

You use different Layer Scales at one time while drawing - in 2D only ?

> Could DL Scales maybe deactivated for 3D (only) completly ?

2.

For which purpose do you use a Layer Scale exactly in the Drawing Window,

so outside of the SheetLayer VP's ?

3.

Another thing beside Scale is Orientation.

Do you use Design Layers in different orientations at the same time ?

Like one DL in Top Plan View while an other in Isometric or similar ?

4.

Do you use 2D Elements in "Screen Orientation" ?

So working 2D in a 3D Space ?

[Tom Klaber]

It is a 2D legacy. We are not building BI models yet, but I would imagine there are still page based objects / attributes that you would want to set a DL layer scale to preview correctly?

Maybe not, but hatches, line weights, and of course DL notation are all affected by the DL scale. I would think you have some of that going on. Especially line weights since VW does not (yet!?!?!) have auto line weighting.

[zoomer]

Generally I think that is a nice feature in 2D drawing to temporarily switch to

a mode where you can see Line Weights and Hatches scale dependent while

drawing, without the need to switch to the Sheet Layer.

Not a help for Drawing Work itself.

-------------

Edit :

I start to more and more think that this is only a temporary feature used very

seldom and not useful for the purpose of Drawing itself, so that it is legitimately

that Line Weights Control is possible in Viewports only.

-------------

What is the benefit of an Auto Line Weighting ?

I think my Microstation displayed Line Weights, if activated, with the fixed

Line Weight on screen. These don't change when zooming.

That way you can compare Line Weights between itself only (?)

Or use it to make your work when drawing itself better readable.

While the VW Mode allows you to see these in scale and so helps you to

choose which Line Weights needed to bring the best suitable readability for

that specific drawing with its given scale.

I am a 2D silly-billie, so I don't oversee if that always works out if you will later

need that same Layer content in a Viewport with a different scale.

[Guest Wes Gardner]

Couple of things...

The Design Layer scale DOES give you the idea of line weights in what will be the bulk of your drawings. For example, in residential design, it is common to draw at 1/4" scale and produce plans, sections, and elevations at that scale. Most houses fit...commercial work, maybe 1/8" is more common.

Hatches should be created as WORLD based so that they scale properly when reduced or enlarged in viewports. Alot of hatches that ship with Vectorworks are set to PAGE based - I don't agree with this and end up creating my own...you can too.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Wes Gardner

[Tom Klaber]

w

What is the benefit of an Auto Line Weighting ?

When you are generating all of your 2D drawings separately - there is no need - because the all the objects have a static relational distance from the view. (And VW would have no idea about relational distance of the objects being drawn)>

When you are modeling - you are generating all of your views from a single model. So sometimes an object is close and needs to be heavy - and in another view - that same object could be further back and require a lighter weight. There is no way to class for this - and leads to some pretty terrible looking elevations and sections.

Auto-line weights fixes this issue as it would allow VW to auto detect the relative distance from the camera and assign line weights accordingly.

[zoomer]

OK, got it.

Kind of an render effect depending on z-buffer.

[HEengineering]

So to better understand your workflow,

1.

You use different Layer Scales at one time while drawing - in 2D only ? Yes

> Could DL Scales maybe deactivated for 3D (only) completely ? Not sure can they?

2.

For which purpose do you use a Layer Scale exactly in the Drawing Window,

so outside of the SheetLayer VP's ? Yes. for every saved view we have several layers assigned to that view, each with different scales as needed.

3.

Another thing beside Scale is Orientation.

Do you use Design Layers in different orientations at the same time ? no

Like one DL in Top Plan View while an other in Isometric or similar ?no

4.

Do you use 2D Elements in "Screen Orientation" ? Always

So working 2D in a 3D Space ? I guess if a design layer is considered 3d space, than yes. I still don't quite understand the new design layer viewport vs sheet layer viewport. It seems to me that previous versions only allowed sheet layer view ports, but if I remember correctly with 16 there are also new design layer viewports??

The other aspect I don't quite get is the reference methods available. We have always used referenced layers. Now you can reference a view port into the design layer of another file? It used to be you could not have a vp on the DL??

My depth of sheet layer views basically amounts to a rendering output to a sheet layer with a viewport for 1 simple item. So while i do understand some of the basics, at times it can become really confusing, especially for a new user.

[HEengineering]

So to better understand your workflow,

1.

You use different Layer Scales at one time while drawing - in 2D only ? Yes

> Could DL Scales maybe deactivated for 3D (only) completely ? Not sure can they?

2.

For which purpose do you use a Layer Scale exactly in the Drawing Window,

so outside of the SheetLayer VP's ? Yes. for every saved view we have several layers assigned to that view, each with different scales as needed.

3.

Another thing beside Scale is Orientation.

Do you use Design Layers in different orientations at the same time ? no

Like one DL in Top Plan View while an other in Isometric or similar ?no

4.

Do you use 2D Elements in "Screen Orientation" ? Always

So working 2D in a 3D Space ? I guess if a design layer is considered 3d space, than yes. I still don't quite understand the new design layer viewport vs sheet layer viewport. It seems to me that previous versions only allowed sheet layer view ports, but if I remember correctly with 16 there are also new design layer viewports??

The other aspect I don't quite get is the reference methods available. We have always used referenced layers. Now you can reference a view port into the design layer of another file? It used to be you could not have a vp on the DL??

My depth of sheet layer views basically amounts to a rendering output to a sheet layer with a viewport for 1 simple item. So while i do understand some of the basics, at times it can become really confusing, especially for a new user.

[zoomer]

Thanks a lot for bringing some light in.

2.

For which purpose do you use a Layer Scale exactly in the Drawing Window,

so outside of the SheetLayer VP's ?

Yes. for every saved view we have several layers assigned to that view, each with different scales as needed.

What content do these Layers have with its different scales ?

Something like a detail over a top plan ?

As I can't still imagine that these are drawn other in the same scale and

dimensions anyway ? They get their final size appearance in the

Sheet Layer at the end anyway ?

4.

Do you use 2D Elements in "Screen Orientation" ? Always

But in Top Plan view only, not in an Isometric View, right ?

As this doesn't matter as they are at the same view position in Top View

as seen from the layer.

That first matters if you look from a 3D view. If you look from an isometric

view most 2D elements will lay still on the ground, while those set to

screen orientation will look like someone is holdings these directly in front

of your face.

So working 2D in a 3D Space ? I guess if a design layer is considered

3d space, than yes. I still don't quite understand the new design layer viewport vs sheet layer viewport.

The other aspect I don't quite get is the reference methods available.

I think DLVPs andSLVPs are totally different and better had a different name.

I see a normal SLVP like a photo shot.

An actual 2D representation of any kind or parts of content from the design file.

2D only because it should be printed on a 2D device like a printer, or a PDF.

At least that was interesting in during the last decades.

An DLVP is more of a container, more similar to a Symbol.

It also can contain 2D as well as 3D data.

You can fill a DLVP with existing content from your file with similar control

like a SLVP has.

So you can copy your complete house a few times around your area and

position it in different heights. Or duplicate your kitchen prototype or cores

around your building. A story prototypes in your skyscraper.

Other than Symbols which will always be all the same, VP will allow that

Walls still adapt to their heights relatives to Story heights or levels.

And I assume that each time new geometry gets created (?) like a

SLVP creates new lines, so it will also work in calculations.

Someone who nows better will correct me.

Reference in VPs will prevent you from importing all those foreign classes.

[RickR]

DL scale affects page scaled elements:

- Text size

- Line weight

- Symbols with "page scale" set

also

DL page size (Some only print from DL.)

Something like DL scale is required, unless you never use any of these elements.

[zoomer]

OK.

I thought these will happen in annotations on sheet layers.

Impractical ?

Because, if you move a wall, you will not see that it can then hide a text field

and you have to switch to SL to reorder ?

So you want to draw your 2D plans on DL exactly as they will appear on final DLVP ?

Align Sections and Elevations beside the Plans to snap to it and those things

like I did on paper with my Mayline and ink ?

If you do Details, you don't have a VP or Layer from plan under it but copy geometry

parts of the plan over ?

No assessment intended at all.

The problem with unified view, which was once off by default and its options like

hide different scales is, that VW starters, me included, always ran into things like :

I started drawing 3D.

Now want to view results in 3D but I can see only one Layer, although all set visible

or strange orientations in space.

Even set correctly, that happens for me when updating SLVPs that parts of the plan

drawings appear in isometric instead of orthogonal.

And that setting DL to 1:1 somehow has some drawbacks in View Navigation or other

things.

[RickR]

Several comments here imply Unified View is an issue and should always be On or Off.

I use Saved Views to help manage UV and Design Layers. Some views have multiple DLs in 3D (at the same scale) and some views are of other DLs at other scales with UV off. Jumping back and forth isn't a problem.

[Donald Wardlaw]

If Layer Scale were to disappear, I'd stop upgrading VW.

It does not bother me that someone else uses a different drawing organization. I prefer that, to there being only One Way.

Most of what HEengineering said captures how I think about this.

What gets lost sometimes in these discussions is the diversity of project types and office sizes that are represented. At the moment one of the virtues of VW is that it allows different work flows for different firms working on different project types. It even allows a firm to adjust their workflow if they like, for different projects.

For some project situations BIM is completely unfunctional, and there is no prospect of that changing. Likewise for some projects non-hybrid project documentation is not functional and that is not likely to change also.

I go back far enough with this software, 25 years now, to remember why a lot of us said no to autocad in the first place, and for that matter to say no to Windows (III I think) also.

The advantage was that Minicad was WYSIWYG. Layer scale derived from that. What has happened in the last 25 years, with 1:1 scale, sheet layers and elaborate standardized class structures, is that this software has become more autocad like. I accept that as long as I am not pushed to work that way.

I take in autocad drawings, often from firms with much more stature than mine, all the time. And what a mess they are. I would be uncomfortable if I thought the product I produce, using the software in the way I prefer, were leading to documents that did not compare with the best others can do using the software in the way they prefer. I am not uncomfortable.

Long live layer scale.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Donald Wardlaw

[zoomer]

When I first noticed Layer Scales in VW I expected different appearances

of architectural objects. Like being showed in a reduced manner if you

go from 1:50 to 1:100 or 1:200. Looks we are far from that.

But to summarize if I got it now :

1. Layer Scales are used in plain 2D only

2. Unified View Off is used in plain 2D only

3. People who use both don't leave Plan View mode

4. There will be Layers with different Scales on the screen at the same time

Are Architectural Elements used nevertheless, in 2D only ?

(without caring about Z heights)

And if Sheet Layers not used,

they will be printed from Design Layers ?

[Donald Wardlaw]

Hey Zoomer,

In my experience,

1. They are used in 2d. Not sure if only used in 2d.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, "Top/Plan" to be precise.

4. You betcha. That's one of the beautiful things.

Elements....goes both ways. Many people do use many of the elements like doors and windows. I don't but that's another issue.

Print from design layers yes. And publish full pdf plan sets from design layer saved views. Sometimes design layers with one or more viewports into other design layers. I have a project with that scheme now. What can be cool about that is that you can dimension correctly right on the design layer viewport. Try that with a Sheet Layer sometime.

[Donald Wardlaw]

Hey Zoomer,

In my experience,

1. They are used in 2d. Not sure if only used in 2d.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, "Top/Plan" to be precise.

4. You betcha. That's one of the beautiful things.

Elements....goes both ways. Many people do use many of the elements like doors and windows. I don't but that's another issue.

Print from design layers yes. And publish full pdf plan sets from design layer saved views. Sometimes design layers with one or more viewports into other design layers. I have a project with that scheme now. What can be cool about that is that you can dimension correctly right on the design layer viewport. Try that with a Sheet Layer sometime.

[digitalcarbon]

a side related issue is that when set to 1:1 the 3d space navigator moves more slowly so i set my scale to 1:8 or 1:50 (anything but 1:1)

[Kevin McAllister]

Hey Zoomer,

In my experience,

1. They are used in 2d. Not sure if only used in 2d.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, "Top/Plan" to be precise.

4. You betcha. That's one of the beautiful things.

Elements....goes both ways. Many people do use many of the elements like doors and windows. I don't but that's another issue.

Print from design layers yes. And publish full pdf plan sets from design layer saved views. Sometimes design layers with one or more viewports into other design layers. I have a project with that scheme now. What can be cool about that is that you can dimension correctly right on the design layer viewport. Try that with a Sheet Layer sometime.

I worked that way from 1993 until 2008. Design Layers in various scales, Title Block layers in 1:1. Sheets turned on and off using saved views. Layer links. Haven't touched any of that since moving to 3d.....

I do set Design Layer scales to something other than 1:1 but they are all the same.

KM

[grant_PD]

Design layers for me are all at 1/4" scale as that's the standard output for our sheets. Which I think is really the only good function of having a layer scale. It allows the viewer to relate to real world things like font sizes and hatches and the like.

[zoomer]

OK,

so if all that new SL Viewport stuff is not used, everything happens on DL's.

Print/Publish is controlled by saved views.

And Title Blocks in 1:1 is an example that I understand why different Scales

at the same time happen.

(Wait ... why not "Real World" Title Block sizes as big as parking spaces ?)

That UV + Layer Scale thing was a bit discussed some time ago too.

At that time it sounded like there would be only a hand full of users still

demanding that feature.

In this Thread it sounds more like half of the US user base. Especially

people that normally don't contribute that much to the forum.

So there may be a lot of users sad if that feature would retire one day.

I think the solution is to just prevent the 3D users from any drawbacks caused

by those features.

Therefore I switched a project to 1:1 DL to look deeper into what these bad

influences may be.

Indeed it requires heavy zooming out each time I switch from SLs backt to DLs.

EDIT : Even when swithing from a Camera Perspaktive back to Top PLAN !!!)

When changing DL scales, there was a checkbox to "scale text".

That either worked well, or, I don't know how I set my text exactly, in world units.

If that will work with dimension text and numbers too, I think I could live with

the current state.

(But wasn't it until 2015, that VW automatically "zoomed to objects" when

switching views, or juts a lucky DL scale selection by me ?)

Edited August 8, 2016 by zoomer

[grant_PD]

I think you have hit the nail on the head with "title blocks as big as parking spaces."

No matter what we do, we are scaling constantly in relation to our screens, and scaling our estimated print size. So therefore we can approach the question in the opposite way:

There is no layer scale...do we need one?

And I would answer "yes." Because I don't want to scale up my text sizes to 100 point text and have my tick marks be as big as a fence line. I want to scale my "drawing" down to the scale of real world output markers so that I can form a relationship with them. (We did this years ago with vellum and a pencil, and never thought twice about it. Text was always 1/8th of an inch high, not 1' in 1/8th scale, 6" in 1/4" scale...etc).

So I would argue that no matter what we do, there will always be layer scale. Whether you apply it before or after, you will always create the relationship between the drawing and the printed page.

That VW allows for multiple scales in a series of layers is a concession to those that still do all their drafting on DL's.

[zoomer]

Well, I saw in my own tests,

Text and Dimensions are not usable in 1:1 DL's

For me, 3D, that means that i have to set all DL's scale to the same scale like the

typical 2D output for now. Not a big deal.

Also, Unified View, once activated and edited its preferences and never touched

again works ok.

There is no layer scale...do we need one?

What would happen ?

You HAVE to use Sheet Layers and Viewports.

All 2D (Line Thicknesses ?), Dimensions and Text happens in VP Annotations ONLY

Is that possible at all ?

(Constrained Dimensions, ....)

Or should we better renounce of Sheet Layers at all in 3D BIM too and use

Design Layer Viewports only - with different Scales

Many of you seem to be fixed on printing.

Currently the whole VW including RW is totally fixed in printing units, paper sizes

and DPI only and fixed to an ancient medium. In a way that it limits myself even

from saving a rendering in a special pixel amount = quality.

But the amount of information is totally independent of output size.

I think the target of BIM is to work on the model only, not the output itself.

From there the output will be generated - for every kind of output medium, that

is depending on the kind of information. PDF is only one special form of it.

It is the amount of information put in the 6D Model and quality of software that

is responsible for the output quality.

But if all people from construction site will walk around with tablets or google glasses

anyway, why 2D PDF only and not directly 3D or more "D".