3D modelling

[Phil hunt]

all

does VW USE THE SAME RENDER ENGINE AS C4D

if not what do you think are the differences

is it in the settings...lighting....materials and

why can C4D achieve such superior renders as i am led to believe

do we think VW will ever get to this stage in future years?

i know the learning curb is step for 4d

but how long would you say before you become proficient enough to use c4d as a workflow

thanks

[PVA - Admin]

Sorry, yes it does. The Physical Renderer is what powers most of Renderworks, with a lot of our Artistic modes being run by their Sketch and Toon (I think that is its formal name) system.

There are other rendering engines available in C4D that we do not have though. It can switch between renderers while in Renderworks it is selected based on the type of render settings you enter.

Hidden Line in particular has a lot of "special" rules about it and I do not think is based on anything related to C4D under the hood, but I may be slightly mistaken about that.

[Kevin McAllister]

I really love C4D for more advanced visualization. I don't do all that much tweaking to the model itself. Its mostly about replacing textures and adjusting cameras/lighting.

If you're a C4D user and you don't know about Greyscale Gorilla, you should - http://greyscalegorilla.com . There's lot of great tutorials about rendering in C4D.

Kevin

[PVA - Admin]

I really love C4D for more advanced visualization. I don't do all that much tweaking to the model itself. Its mostly about replacing textures and adjusting cameras/lighting.

If you're a C4D user and you don't know about Greyscale Gorilla, you should - http://greyscalegorilla.com . There's lot of great tutorials about rendering in C4D.

Kevin

I can also not recommend http://greyscalegorilla.com/ enough. I develop tricks and teaching methods derivatively from them on a regular basis.

[Kevin McAllister]

I can also not recommend http://greyscalegorilla.com/ enough. I develop tricks and teaching methods derivatively from them on a regular basis.

I watched Nick demo in person at the Siggraph convention here a couple of years ago. Its the closest I've ever become to an internet fanboy......

KM

[zoomer]

does VW USE THE SAME RENDER ENGINE AS C4D

if not what do you think are the differences

is it in the settings...lighting....materials and

why can C4D achieve such superior renders as i am led to believe

I see RW as a C4D Render System with fewer Settings, much easier to setup.

So more useful for people where Visualisation is not the main profession.

(I think a lot of VW users therefore use tools like Artlantis)

On the other hand if you learned how to use and understand Render Settings,

C4D is much more flexible and the UI easier if you go a bit deeper.

RW has a nice set of (hidden) default settings.

In C4D you may have 2-10 times more settings to reach the last 20% of image

quality or render times - or to slow things down and create problems.

Main advantage of C4D for me is the separate Render Window to save Image

Files, Camera Reliability, Aspect Ratio Framing and Shift Option, Take System

for Batch Rendering of Versions, 4 Window View, Geometry Editing of all Items

at one time, ....

[EAlexander]

all

does VW USE THE SAME RENDER ENGINE AS C4D

if not what do you think are the differences

is it in the settings...lighting....materials and

why can C4D achieve such superior renders as i am led to believe

do we think VW will ever get to this stage in future years?

i know the learning curb is step for 4d

but how long would you say before you become proficient enough to use c4d as a workflow

thanks

Don't think about it in terms of quality or final output. Think about it in regard to workflow and time - specifically, I can set up lighting and cameras in a fraction of the time. How about putting 5 different materials onto one object? Easy.

If you are mostly doing CAD and the occasional render - C4D isn't going to benefit you much. If you are doing multiple visualizations per project, then there is real value there.

Also - to backtrack on your question about Material ID and Passes - C4D has a very nice pass system that uses "Object Buffers" to get masks into Photoshop - there are tutorials about this on the Grayscale gorilla site.

I also recommend them as a great starting place to learn - additionally, their HDRI studio kit is an amazing timesaver. They have a free, 20 hour tutorial series for getting started. Download the trial from Maxon and try it out. Ask questions - many here happy to help.

e.

[PVA - Admin]

I see RW as a C4D Render System with fewer Settings, much easier to setup.

So more useful for people where Visualisation is not the main profession.

(I think a lot of VW users therefore use tools like Artlantis)

On the other hand if you learned how to use and understand Render Settings,

C4D is much more flexible and the UI easier if you go a bit deeper.

RW has a nice set of (hidden) default settings.

In C4D you may have 2-10 times more settings to reach the last 20% of image

quality or render times - or to slow things down and create problems.

Main advantage of C4D for me is the separate Render Window to save Image

Files, Camera Reliability, Aspect Ratio Framing and Shift Option, Take System

for Batch Rendering of Versions, 4 Window View, Geometry Editing of all Items

at one time, ....

all

does VW USE THE SAME RENDER ENGINE AS C4D

if not what do you think are the differences

is it in the settings...lighting....materials and

why can C4D achieve such superior renders as i am led to believe

do we think VW will ever get to this stage in future years?

i know the learning curb is step for 4d

but how long would you say before you become proficient enough to use c4d as a workflow

thanks

Don't think about it in terms of quality or final output. Think about it in regard to workflow and time - specifically, I can set up lighting and cameras in a fraction of the time. How about putting 5 different materials onto one object? Easy.

If you are mostly doing CAD and the occasional render - C4D isn't going to benefit you much. If you are doing multiple visualizations per project, then there is real value there.

^ Very accurate.

You could probably single-shot for single-shot of a phtorealistic style render give C4D a serious run for its money just using Renderworks, but the tools and interface in C4D are superior because of their focused development. Everything they have done for years has been to generate raw 3D geometry, improve their rendering engine and to improve their animation tools.

They are extremely focused compared to use and that gives their UI a singular purpose that ours will probably never be able to beat because of our much wider user interest.

[Phil hunt]

Thanks Jim

At least could we work on the photoshop layers option that I described

Makes life a lot easier in post production

Otherwise can't see the point of all these save as file formats

[fabrica]

some internal joinery images of retro fit project. Kitchen and bookcase etc modelled in VW , along with overall extension.

then rendered in C4D (books etc a C4D plug-in) - haven't put any real post-production into them yet... (affinity photo for that!)

[Phil hunt]

Nice work. How do you find cinema 4d was it a steep learning curb

[fabrica]

Hi Phil,

not too steep but I'm probably not using a quarter of the functions!

The lights and the material settings are the things to learn if your modelling in VW and then transferring to C4D, and external renders are much easier than the internal ones.

Along with Grey Scale Gorilla mentioned above here are some resources I used that helped:

https://vimeo.com/konstantinmagnus - very detailed on lights and post production techniques

- this method I use for internal renders (GI portals etc)

- another good lighting tutorial/discussion

- some texture tips for changing materials.

- tip for objects and how to find items from the VW->C4D transfer

[zoomer]

^ Thanks for these cool links !!!

Another one is http://www.cineversity.com

There are some free tutorials but when having MSA (Maxon service agreement)

like VW select service, you can watch all these free for a year.

[Phil hunt]

Great videos. Thanks.

[SamIWas]

I'm probably different from many here. I've been using C4D since around 2000, and other 3D modeling an animation apps since very basic stuff in the 80s when I was barely 10 years old. I just cannot get my mind wrapped around using VW as a modeler. Yes, I do find operations using splines and extrudes a bit faster, but when it comes to positioning stuff in three dimensions, or building anything that isn't a mostly-primitive object, C4D is my main tool of choice. Just can't beat the coordinates, grouping, nesting, and naming options. And as far as texturing, no comparison.

I did ask the same question some time ago apparently if you set everything in Vectorworks and render in c4d it renders exactly the same as would Vectorworks

Is this correct and if so how do you enhance the render in cd4

I was thinking of buying cd4 as a friend of mine says the renders in cd4 are far superior

I don't want to model in cd4 just render or will I just be wasting money

The renderer in C4D has many more options to streamline your renders or get every nuanced detail you desire. I don't think using C4D is wasting money. The two pieces of software compliment each other quite well. There are some things that are far easier and more powerful in Vectorworks. There are more things that are much easier in C4D. If there were a hybrid of the two pieces of software, I'd be in heaven. Hell, if VW would just assume C4D's keyboard shortcut system, I'd be a much happier!

I model everything in VW, after that I send it to C4D. In C4D I do all the textures and lighting.

I prefer C4D for that, in my opinion its is easier to handle lighting and texures there (C4D doesnt import the texture, but is has a 'connection' to the image file, so much better!).

Besides that: allot of time I tweak the geometry of the scene a bit in C4D, or reuse an exicting scene.

The tweaking is really easy because you can drag 'points' in C4D.

So making a room twice as big, or a table 10cm shorter: done in 2 mins

Agreed, except I usually just use VW to get the splines needed, then do the rest in C4D. I guess I'm just more of a 2D VW person!

Studio Bundle if you really want to work with C4D.

(MoGraph Cloner Tool !)

MoGraph cloner tool is freakin' amazing. Between that and Xpresso, I've been able to create some pretty cool things.

I almost broke down and upgraded by C4D for the first time in over six years with their sale last week. But I didn't quite make it. I don't need everything in Studio, but only Studio has everything I do need, so I'm stuck paying for the full software.

Nice work. How do you find cinema 4d was it a steep learning curb

For me, having grown up doing stuff in similar software, it was pretty easy. I personally think just about anyone could figure out how to get a decent model made in it. But to get more advanced, it's going to take some time to learn.

[Phil hunt]

so i wonder

looking at all the comments...it seems that some people us CD4 as a render engine

only as the finished results are superior with the lights and other bits which i don't know about as i have never used the software.....

until i see some comparisons its hard to judge

and some people use the render engine and other sections like textures which as i understand again are far superior....as i am being led to be believe

so why can't we have these items added to vw renderworks

improved lighting...

improved texturing and so on

its seems so logical that all the above comments leads to these improvements

being made in our VW software package

i also can't understand why we can't have a drag and drop decal onto surfaces

with the option of implementing the alpha channel once in position...i find it such a long winded exercise in applying decals i always seem to end up deleting the wrong decal when applying another on the same surface....

maybe these are coming but as all the improvements to VW 2017 (with the exception of a certain few) are locked up in

a bank vault not to be released until august....i may be jumping the gun

with my comments....

i do indeed hope so folks

[PVA - Admin]

It is possible to have them added to Vectorworks. What made it seem like they can not?

If the questions were more intended as "Why have they not YET been added?" then thats just a matter of what resources we have to devote to what aspects of Vectorworks. Cinema4D specializes in this specifically, they will almost assuredly be ahead and develop faster in this slice of what Vectorworks does as a whole.

[fabrica]

checked with UK supplier here and they won't give access to cineversity.com with VSS ... which is a pity!

^ Thanks for these cool links !!!

Another one is http://www.cineversity.com

There are some free tutorials but when having MSA (Maxon service agreement)

like VW select service, you can watch all these free for a year.

[PVA - Admin]

Agreed, I LOVE Cineversity

[zoomer]

Pity, but not having access to all Cineverity content isn't such a problem.

I lived well without it the last years.

There are not so many tutorials related to things like architecture.

And there are so many other sources of free C4D tutorials and videos.

so why can't we have these items added to vw renderworks

improved lighting...

improved texturing and so on

its seems so logical that all the above comments leads to these improvements

being made in our VW software package

Because adding all that complexity needs a lot of learning and would make it much

harder to use RW for the average user.

Better Texture control is often wished and some improvements are very welcome

if done right. I think Lights and Rendering is quite complete concerning its features.

I would concentrate on improvements in RW UI and usability..

[Phil hunt]

hi jim my post wasn't intended as a criticism to the software

just looking at all the posts in this thread just seemed like a lot of people use other software as they have to look elsewhere to complete there workflow

seems a pity really but i understand your point of view as i guess the 2 pieces of software have differing avenues to explore

cheers

phil

[SamIWas]

hi jim my post wasn't intended as a criticism to the software

just looking at all the posts in this thread just seemed like a lot of people use other software as they have to look elsewhere to complete there workflow

seems a pity really but i understand your point of view as i guess the 2 pieces of software have differing avenues to explore

Cinema 4d is built as a full 3d modeling/animation program, whereas Vectorworks is a CAD program with robust 3D features.

The texturing abilities of C4D are barely comparable to VW, but it would require one hell of an overhaul to get those abilities in VW, and would probably be a much larger learning curve than most people have the time/need for. Same goes for many lighting features. When you get to the point of needing that much control over lighting and texturing, sometimes it's better to have a program that specializes in those sorts of things.

[Phil hunt]

point taken sam

i'll continue to model in vectorworks and export to artlantis

i get great renders using the above and its been good to me for past 15 years or so!

After all the comments i have read and seen about the rendering in C4D i would have liked to see what i could have achieved given the time....

i don't need the level of 3d modelling that C4D can give... i can model most things in VW and anything that i need on top there's always 3d warehouse or Turbosquid,

but its been interesting and informative as usual for all the comments

and advice.....

[PVA - Admin]

There is a lot to be said for using the tools that one knows best.

[Jonathan Pickup]

Often, it's not the tool you use it's the way you use.