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Fredrik Amn

Scaling objects/symbols

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Hi

I have a hard time scaling imported objects and symbols using the "Scale object...". It just won?t do it, nothing happens. I?v tried to do it in the "edit symbol mode" but still no result. It?s starting to gett on my nervs.

Anyone know what to do? [Confused]

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If you dont need to keep those imported symbols as symbols any longer you can convert them to group and then apply Scale command to them.

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Guest

If you are scaling objects in Edit Symbol mode, you need to make sure all the objects are selected and you have your class options set to Show Snap Modify others.

When going to Scale Objects under the Tool menu, enter in a value less or greater than 1. Leaving it at 1 will not make the object scale.

If you have text in the symbol you want scaled, check scale text.

If you only want the symbol scaled, you don't need to select Entire Drawing. (that will scale the entire drawing).

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Could it be a case of nested Symbols? I often find those in AutoCad files.

The "Scale Objects" command doesn't work on Symbols.

The "Edit Symbol" command allows you to scale the objects inside a Symbol, unless those objects are also Symbols, in which case you have to work inside the second tier, or third, or however many nestings there are, until you get to objects that are not Symbols.

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The scale objects command works on symbols and nested symbols only when "entire drawing" is selected.

If you want to scale a single symbol, you need to edit the symbol and use scale objects.

As Jan says, if you have nested symbols in the symbol while in edit symbol mode - you will not be able to scale the symbol until everything is un-nested.

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Thanks!

Jan15 was right, this was a case of nested sybols. I managed to un-nest them an now i can scale them.

[smile]

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quote:

Originally posted by Katie:

If you want to scale a single symbol, you need to edit the symbol and use scale objects.


Is there a specific reason why individual symbols can't be scaled? It is a severe handicap.

When I want to create a new symbol it means I have to create a different sized one for every scale that I use in my drawings, which is a real pain. Also a LOT of redrawing is required if I want to change the scale of drawing.

Is this on the wish list?

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David, No this is incorrect. When you insert a symbol into a layer the symbol WILL take on the scale of that layer.

This thread is referring to something different: that is the SCALE OBJECTS command, which will scale and object regardless of the layer's scale setting.

PC

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Perhaps David is thinking of the AutoCad ability to re-size each iteration of a Block.

I never found a use for that feature, but I knew of other people who liked it. Some structural engineers, for example, liked to have just one Block for all wide-flange sections, and to re-size each iteration of it for the width and height of the WF in that location.

But I don't think they were particularly interested in using a Block, which like our Symbol can be edited to affect all iterations. They just wanted an easy way to copy and resize a set of objects as a unit. In VectorWorks that can be done with the Group. The so-called "Group" that AutoCad introduced in release 13 doesn't really lend itself to that purpose.

If you have a Symbol which you want to place at a few alternate sizes, with many iterations of each alternate size, you can easily make each different size a separate Symbol, by inserting the iteration and then issuing the sequence "Symbol to Group", "Scale Objects", "Ungroup", and "Create Symbol".

If you want to do something like the wide-flange example, but with the ability to edit all the different-size iterations globally, you can do that by assigning Class attributes. That can also include making certain objects appear or disappear depending on their Class setting of zero or non-zero line width.

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quote:

Originally posted by CipesDesign:

David, No this is incorrect. When you insert a symbol into a layer the symbol WILL take on the scale of that layer.

PC

I know it takes on the scale. That's the problem.

I have symbols on different scaled layers which, when plotted, I want to appear the same size. Therefore I have to create a symbol for each scale that I want to use. Which is v. labourious.

In Autocad when inserting a Block (which is the nearest thing to a VW symbol) into a drawing, you can specify a scale for the block, which means only one version of the block (symbol) has to be created.

This thread is referring to something different: that is the SCALE OBJECTS command, which will scale and object regardless of the layer's scale setting.

PC

Yes I know, & what I'm asking is why isn't symbol scaling using SCALE OBJECTS a part of VW.

If anyone knows of a solution to this problem, please let me know.

[ 05-06-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: DaveF ]

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You can when in edit symbol mode.

You cannot make changes to a symbol unless you are in the edit mode. That's the rule of thumb for symbols.

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David.

OK, I guess I'm not understanding your problem. Maybe you could give me a specific example?

Peter

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quote:

Originally posted by Katie:

You can when in edit symbol mode.

Two points, please correct me if I'm talking rubbish:

1) This, unfortunately, acts globally on all instances of the symbol. Autocad allows rescaling on an individual instance of a block.

2) The edit symbol does not really scale, it's actually like editing/redrawing the symbol.

You cannot make changes to a symbol unless you are in the edit mode. That's the rule of thumb for symbols.

I understand that. What I'm trying to find out is why is there this limitation. Why can't you scale a symbol in the scale objects dialog?

[ 05-06-2003, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: DaveF ]

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Because you can't. It's not a property of a symbol. Just like you can't edit a PIO by editing it. You have to edit it thru the OIP.

Think about it - it's a symbol - a container of several different objects that is meant to be repeated over and over in the drawing so you don't have to redraw it each time. By resizing a single symbol, you would change the accuracy of a repetitive object in the drawing.

Since symbols are defined by a definition of objects rather than an instance of objects, you have to edit the symbol to change paramters of the definition of objects.

When editing a single symbol in the drawing, you are editing the definition of the symbol. You can't change the size of one single symbol in a drawing - or else it wouldn't be the same symbol as the other objects using the same object definition.

Part of the definition includes the dimensions and shape of those objects.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jim Smith:

DaveF,

Have you used the "group" function rather than a symbol? As long as a group does not have a symbol inside it, one should be able to scale the grouped object. If you have many symbols that you use, go to edit symbol, copy what is contained in the symbol, then paste that in the drawing (as a group).

Jim,

Unfortunately the way my company has set it up, the symbols have records inside them. Again, correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware groups can't contain records.

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quote:

Originally posted by Katie:

Because you can't. It's not a property of a symbol. Just like you can't edit a PIO by editing it. You have to edit it thru the OIP.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the OIP? I know about editing plug-ins via the create plug-ins command under Organise. Is that what your on about?

Think about it - it's a symbol - a container of several different objects that is meant to be repeated over and over in the drawing so you don't have to redraw it each time. By resizing a single symbol, you would change the accuracy of a repetitive object in the drawing.

I'm not sure I agree with you on that point. Wouldn't it just resize it?

Since symbols are defined by a definition of objects rather than an instance of objects, you have to edit the symbol to change paramters of the definition of objects.

When editing a single symbol in the drawing, you are editing the definition of the symbol. You can't change the size of one single symbol in a drawing - or else it wouldn't be the same symbol as the other objects using the same object definition.

Part of the definition includes the dimensions and shape of those objects.

I know you can't do it now but I still don't see why VW can't be programmed to allow an instance of a symbol to be rescaled. That would not redefine it. It would still be the same symbol, containing the same objects (lines, text etc.) just at a different size. Acad manages to do it just fine.

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Scaling changes the actual dimensions of the objects.

The way symbols are - you have to be in the edit symbol mode to physically change the size of objects of a symbol.

That's just the way it is.

There are alot of things that VW and AC do differently. That's why we are different applications and have different user's.

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Katie,

Perhaps what DaveF is looking for is a wishlist item.

Why could there not be a "Page" vs "World" unit setting in the "Create Symbol" dialog similar to the one in the "Create Hatch" dialog.

Symbols created in "World" units would act as symbols currently do, they would use the unit values of the layer the symbol is placed on.

Symbols created in "Page" units would display at the same relative screen size no matter what the scale of the layer thay are placed on.

Ideally, this could be a toggle button on the insertion options pane of the symbol dialog.

We all have symbols we wish to appear at the same screen size no matter of the layer scale.

For example, I want my detail bubble to be 1/2" diameter on the screen no matter if I am placing it on a 1/4" scale layer or a 1/8" scale layer.

Currently, I have to have two symbols, the one for the 1/4" layer drawn at 2'-0" diameter, and the one for the 1/8" layer drawn at a 4'-0" diameter.

Another example would be a detail symbol which you would want to appear at 1/2" scale no matter what layer you place it on.

I admit, 99% of my symbols I want to scale with the layer they are placed on, but there are a handfull of symbols that a "Page" unit would be very useful for. These are mostly drawing markers, note blocks, detail symbols, drawing borders etc.

Maybe not an easy task for the engineers, but I would sure like to see this in a future release of VectorWorks.

Regards,

PeterT

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I have been asking for this since version about version 8, so good luck some day pigs may fly.

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>We all have symbols we wish to appear at the same screen size no matter of the layer scale.

If this is true, (and I strongly suspect it is) shouldn't this be considered for future inclusion?

>There are alot of things that VW and AC do differently.

Unfortnately, since moving from AC to VW it appears to me that AC does whereas VW doesn't [Frown]

>That's why we are different applications and have different user's.

Again, I'm sorry to say AC does, VW doesn't. Just take a look at the number of posts to AC newsgroups for conformation. [Roll Eyes]

[ 05-06-2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: DavidF ]

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DaveF ,

If you set-up your sheets with classes and layers you should be able to do what you want to do. My Title block for example is always drawn 1:1 and is a layer that is visible on all sheets regardless of the scale of the rest of the drawing. The North arrow I use is a symbol (drawn 1:1) and it is on a layer and in a class that allows it to be visible or not depending on the sheet. My detail sheets may have 3 or 4 different scales, and in some cases a detail is layer linked to a layer at a different scale on the same drawing with additional detail and/or notes are added to the new layer.

Here?s what I am suggesting:

Add a layer titled "Symbol" (use class to help with visibility on different sheets). Choose the scale size you want to have symbols printed at and set the layer's scale. Next place all your symbols in this layer, you should always "see" symbols at this size regardless of what scale is used on the rest of the sheet. (One thing to watch is class visibility as the symbol brings class info from where it was created.) Set your sheet visibility so the symbol layer is visible. If you have different scales for different symbols you want to display you may want to address that by multiple "Symbol" layers on your sheets. Also keep the class or layer info in mind when running any spread sheet to pick-up records attached to the symbol.

I understand that this may be a "work-around" but it may be less time consuming than redrawing.

Hope this helps

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DaveF,

Have you used the "group" function rather than a symbol? As long as a group does not have a symbol inside it, one should be able to scale the grouped object. If you have many symbols that you use, go to edit symbol, copy what is contained in the symbol, then paste that in the drawing (as a group).

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David, I think the inherent simplicity of allowing symbols to be global, and therefore globally editable, is a compelling construct. One of the advantages of VW compared to AutoCAD is that it is far more transparent, and less encumbered by features that were tacked on to the original concept.

If you want to scale something like a detail bubble, you are now able to do it by using a Plug-in-object (editable in the OIP, object information palette). You may have to own a copy of VW Architect to have this feature available.

I support the idea that symbols are globally uniform, and that the scaling tool does what it would logically seem to do, change the actual dimensions of an object. Since scaling an instance of a symbol would not change it globally nor change its definition, this application of the scaling tool would be inconsistent with the concept that currently underlies it - and likely would require a complete overhaul of the code as well. I think the answer to your question and to your legitimate request is in these plug-ins that create drawing symbols which can be inserted in a layer of any scale and result in a uniform plotted size.

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There are several things VW does that Ac does not .. and many more that VW does better than AC.

We have many more users moving from AC to VW rather than VW to AC.

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Side Note -

WHen using the resource markers such as reference marker, drawing label, etc., you can change the 2d scale of the object in the OIP.

You do not need to edit the symbol to change the size of those items.

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