zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Who uses Slabs ? What are the advantages of Slabs over a simple Extrude beside having a BIM Slab Tag and the ability to bound 1 (!) level to a Story level ? Bounding to Walls works in most simple environments only. As soon as part of the Slab should overlap the Walls, like when you Floor Plan of your Story is overlapping but not same as the Walls of the Story below. Then you have to also draw your shape manually. Picking Walls isn't very convenient anyway. You can only bound the Z-Ref to a Story level, the Thickness will be hard coded into the Slab Style. No flexibility when changing Height Levels In 2016 you still can't see your environment when in Slab Editing Mode. Means you have to draw your Stair Holes, CMD+X, before you edit the Slab and need to paste in. For changes you have to Edit Slab and delete the previous modifying geometry before pasting the new one, otherwise you will forget which geometry is needed and which not. If you have a Slab and want to get rid of it by CMD+U, you will not get a simple Extrude as you expect but a Floor Object. Bottom Z in OIP is shown relative to the active Layers Story Height !? If you CMD+U the Floor Object, you will at least get your 2D boundary object. But in 2016 it will jump in Height to World Z 0.00, when you were on a Layer with a Story Height. Quote Link to comment
J Lucas Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The kind of stuff you are describing goes on and on and on with most of the fancy new BIM tools, rendering them virtually useless, as soon as some form of normal architectural complexity needs to be addressed. Quote Link to comment
michaelk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I use slabs all the time. The reasons I use them are 1. Unlike extrudes, have a fill in 2D that can be a hatch if you want. Especially in structures that have some rooms open to the floor below, using a slab to occlude the floors below is great. 2. They are much easier to edit than extrudes using add surface and clip surface. (To cut stair holes you can draw a rectangle and clip surface.) Not sure what you mean by deleting geometry and pasting… I usually use the X-ray command (B) to see the geometry on the floor below when drawing the slab cut out, then select the slab and the geometry and clip surface. 3. It's easy to quickly lay down some framing members using the framing command. Can't to that with and extrude. If you ungroup a slab, I believe you get one polygon and one floor object for every component of the slab. (Like a proto Auto Hybrid object) I agree that it's odd that floor object heights are from the bottom of the object and slab objects are from the top. I prefer to think of the top of the slab height rather than the bottom of the floor height. 4. The ability to pick new boundaries for slab objects it pretty slick. I agree that we need more control with boundaries. Go under this wall but not that wall. For simple buildings or for just getting started I find using auto boundaries is great. But it doesn't take a lot of complexity before you need manual slab boundaries. hth mk Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yes, neither my projects nor my workflow may be compatible with VW in general. But does someone use Slabs and is happy or even convinced of Slabs because of things, workarounds or tricks I don't know so far ? Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks Michael, So there is one 1. Unlike extrudes, have a fill in 2D that can be a hatch if you want. Especially in structures that have some rooms open to the floor below, using a slab to occlude the floors below is great. Ah, forgot about that. (Remeber a video of a spotlight user using Slabs instead of Walls or Extrudes because of this fact for his theater) 2. They are much easier to edit than extrudes using add surface and clip surface. (To cut stair holes you can draw a rectangle and clip surface.) OK, trick #1 I would not have expected that option (2D tool on 3D Object) Seems to work fine. Not sure what you mean by deleting geometry and pasting… I think I learned how to edit Slabs from a tutorial. Like elsewhere, double clicking on a Slab to go into edit mode (like a Symbol), and boom, everything else is invisible and nothing to snap or orient anymore. I agree that it's odd that floor object heights are from the bottom of the object and slab objects are from the top. I prefer to think of the top of the slab height rather than the bottom of the floor height. +++++1 4. The ability to pick new boundaries for slab objects it pretty slick. I agree that we need more control with boundaries. Go under this wall but not that wall. For simple buildings or for just getting started I find using auto boundaries is great. But it doesn't take a lot of complexity before you need manual slab boundaries. +1 Quote Link to comment
michaelk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 That add and clip surface trick works on roof faces and floors as well. (although there is a small bug in add surface with roof faces in 2016) When you double click a floor object to get back to it's original polygon or polyline, if "show other objects while in edit mode" is on, then you should be able to still see and snap to other objects in the drawing. I also use floor objects for countertops. They can be edited with clip and add surface the same way. Easy to control the height and thickness with parameters. I don't like the way the countertop is split up in 2D when using the countertop on the base cabinet tool. And with a floor object it's easy to cut a hole for the sink or add extensions for islands. mk Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 When you double click a floor object to get back to it's original polygon or polyline, if "show other objects while in edit mode" is on, then you should be able to still see and snap to other objects in the drawing. That does not seem to work for me, like it works for Extrudes or Symbols, since VW 2014. As I thought this is the only way to edit Slabs, working blindfolded, I had to draw my 2D cutting Geometry before and paste it in the blindfolded Edit Slab mode. Quote Link to comment
bcd Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I use both. In some cases I find the empty extrude offers a distinct advantage, eg for a ballroom where you want to show a rendered floor/ ceiling but don't want the floor/ceiling fill to be snappable or visible in Top/Plan Quote Link to comment
Markvl Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Great idea of using a slab for counters MK. I'll have to give that a whirl. Quote Link to comment
michaelk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Great idea of using a slab for counters MK. I'll have to give that a whirl. I use a floor object rather than a slab. Easier to edit the thickness. mk Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Is the Floor Object the "Unstyled Wall" under the Slabs ? Quote Link to comment
michaelk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yes. Great way to put it. mk Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Ok, thanks to Michael's coaching, Slabs are sorted into my list of useful Tools in VW now and I will keep the Slab Styles that I have created so far for my Template File. Next question, Slab Styles. So far I tend to set all my Styles and Plugin Symbols to have everything assigned by Component and Class to keep everything "parametric". I realized that will limit to 2,5D Materials for the Slab case. Do you use Material by Object, to assign different (wall) Materials to the vertical Sides or any other tricks in practice ? Quote Link to comment
michaelk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Now were talking philosophy! Since I'm a hired gun I have to adapt to the graphic standards of whatever client I'm working for. At the moment, none of my clients wants components in walls or slabs for graphic reasons. When I'm doing my own thing, I like to do it by component and have the components use class attributes. Again for graphic reasons - it makes adjusting fills and line weights easier, since each project gets sent to a different print house. After the first print, we can make graphic changes more quickly that way than editing the definitions of walls, slabs, and roof objects. But for smaller projects, you can't beat the simplicity of single component wall and slab styles with the graphic attributes assigned in the definition. I usually apply textures to the left side of the exterior walls and call it done. I'm trying to talk some clients into using stories and wall components so we can apply ledges and have the exterior cladding of exterior walls cover the slabs. But for now, I'm happy everyone is using worksheets mk Quote Link to comment
Diamond Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Hello People's, If I may weigh in... Generally I will use by component, but there is no absolute rule whether to assign material by object or by component. At the start of a project, developing components for walls and slabs can take time, so I might assign by object, but as it progresses, I will move over to by component. Also I will often assign existing walls and buildings to by object, as I will render them in a dark grey, as so they may stay by object for the full duration of the project. For components I use a "Component-..." series of classes that relate to finishes/materials. For example, it doesn't matter if a concrete material is used in a wall or a slab etc, as long as it has the same finish (texture) I will use the same class. For the settings of these classes, I have preset colours, line weights, hatches, textures etc so that if I render in 3D, cut a section in 3D, or drawing a 2D detail, the same class is used. Why do this? The benefits are that there no longer are wall, slab, stair, roof etc component classes, just material and finishes classes. Also these classes can relate directly to my finishes schedules. PS I also use floor objects for a multitude of 3D work that needs to read correctly in 2D. As mentioned above, kitchen benches are a great example. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Bounding to Walls works in most simple environments only. As soon as part of the Slab should overlap the Walls, like when you Floor Plan of your Story is overlapping but not same as the Walls of the Story below. Then you have to also draw your shape manually. Picking Walls isn't very convenient anyway. I don't know how you bind your walls, but I never have this problem. You have to bind to the correct walls. Know that you can bind to walls on other layers (when you have the option '../modify others' on in the layer options.) Also, if you can't bind your slabs, then it can be that your drawing methodology isn't great and maybe you should revision it. I'm especially talking about flat roof sections from the story below: I draw those top parts of the walls separate, that makes it way easier to work with, and avoid problems like binding to walls... Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) You can only bound the Z-Ref to a Story level, the Thickness will be hard coded into the Slab Style. No flexibility when changing Height Levels True, and that's the same shortcoming that walls have. Imho a slab/wall/roof style should be about the kind of components, not about their thickness... But I don't see the problem when changing height levels. A slab shouldn't be determined by two heights, it sits at a height and has a thickness... Edited November 17, 2015 by Dieter @ DWorks Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) In 2016 you still can't see your environment when in Slab Editing Mode. Means you have to draw your Stair Holes, CMD+X, before you edit the Slab and need to paste in. For changes you have to Edit Slab and delete the previous modifying geometry before pasting the new one, otherwise you will forget which geometry is needed and which not. You can just add and subtract shapes without going into the 'edit slab holes' mode. But yeah, I also hate it to have artefacts of previous adds/subtractions, so I also delete all and redo from time to time, though I don't have to add/subtract that many things, except for the door/window openings. Imo, we shouldn't need to be able to do this, at least not the subtracting, a slab should make the holes itself through priority based stuff, so if a wall is intersecting it, cut the slab.... This is already on the wish list. Edited November 17, 2015 by Dieter @ DWorks Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If you have a Slab and want to get rid of it by CMD+U, you will not get a simple Extrude as you expect but a Floor Object. Bottom Z in OIP is shown relative to the active Layers Story Height !? If you CMD+U the Floor Object, you will at least get your 2D boundary object. But in 2016 it will jump in Height to World Z 0.00, when you were on a Layer with a Story Height. VW has Z problems in different areas, especially related to stories. If you want to get the extrude, just go to edit shape mode, copy it, go back from the edit shape mode, past it, extrude it, change height if needed. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yes, neither my projects nor my workflow may be compatible with VW in general. But does someone use Slabs and is happy or even convinced of Slabs because of things, workarounds or tricks I don't know so far ? Yes! I'm very happy with slabs, they speed up the work, make great floor plans (because of the fill) and I get my sections almost complete for the first phases of the project. There are no real tricks to it. There are more tricks and workaround you need to know for the walls. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 2. They are much easier to edit than extrudes using add surface and clip surface. (To cut stair holes you can draw a rectangle and clip surface.) OK, trick #1 I would not have expected that option (2D tool on 3D Object) Seems to work fine. Slabs aren't 3D objects, they are hybrid objects, like in 2D and 3D at the same time. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think I learned how to edit Slabs from a tutorial. Like elsewhere, double clicking on a Slab to go into edit mode (like a Symbol), and boom, everything else is invisible and nothing to snap or orient anymore. you can edit the shape of a slab by selecting the slab, then select the edit polygon tool from your basic tool pallet, then you don't need to go into the edit mode... Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) OK. For my Template Styles I go a similar way. Just the simplest Styles so that I can start drawing and do nice screenshots immediately. I too don't use "real"components. I will draw all Walls on "Class Walls-0" and but have set one Wall/Slab Component, maybe Concrete, to be assigned to Class Wall-Concrete. So maybe I will have 2 simple Styles like a classic modern White Plaster and a more progressive Concrete Version. No one expects serious 2D plans output from me but it should be possible to extract nice reduced but plausible Sections, for me to control my modeling and for clients to show/explain geometrical problems. So Walls and Slabs of same Material should melt together in Sections. I never found Slabs with more than one Component useful in practice so I always did an additional Slab/Floor for the Finishing Floor. I think I should stay with Slabs. I can bound these (Floor)Slabs to Walls of Rooms/Spaces (Or do Floor Objects have any meaning I don't know so far ?) If I got that right I should be fine with my 1-Component Walls/Slabs strictly by Components/Classes. As I see I can still overwrite Walls/Slabs later to by-object assignment in OIP later, if ever needed. Edited November 17, 2015 by zoomer Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Great idea of using a slab for counters MK. I'll have to give that a whirl. I find the floor object better for counter tops, much easier and faster, I have always used it for counter tops. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Is the Floor Object the "Unstyled Wall" under the Slabs ? Nope. The floor object is the old slab, and you can create it through one of you menus. The 3D part is just the extruded 2D part. Quote Link to comment
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