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Finally get rid of scale settings for design layers please!


VvierA

Question

In former times (before sheet layers were introduced) the scale settings for design layers were needed to print several scales on one plan.

Since we have sheet layers (and even viewports for design layers) we don't need scale settings for design layers.

With the BIM concept: Does it really make sense to build the model of a building with a certain scale setting for example 1:50 if I'd like to generate drawings with lots of different scales?

I don't think so.

Instead I'd like to see, that all annotation and labelling tools get to work properly within the 'annotation space' of a viewport.

With that I can keep the design layer clean of any text, labelling or annotation.

I won't need several classes for the annotation in several scales or plans.

Everything concerning the model would be part of the design layer and everything concerning the output would be part of the sheet layers.

VvierA

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I wholeheartedly disagree with getting rid of scales for design layers. For the kind of work I do combined with having to output to specified paper sizes there are some benefits for design layer scales.

For example, I can directly see if the drawing will still fit on the required output size or whether I need to change the scale or if the scale is also fixed(happens sometimes) to adjust the design and start splitting things up or whatever else is necessary. It will also give a good impression of how things will look at output size instead of messing with this afterwards such as in AutoCAD

Putting all text on a sheet layer in the viewports annotation sometimes does not work for some types of work, it would be a nightmare to deal with.

You can still work the way you prefer, just keep the design layer scale 1:1 and then ignore it and proceed as you described.

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You can still work the way you prefer, just keep the design layer scale 1:1 and then ignore it and proceed as you described.

^

No, that does not work in reality.

I'm also for the "unscaled!" 1:1 appraoch.

There is also an vital discussion on the german forum.

There would be other modern ways to achieve your scale control or printing

from design layers. It is just how VW currently works that makes Layers Scales

necessary. I think it is an anachronism that came from times pre-viewports.

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You can still work the way you prefer, just keep the design layer scale 1:1 and then ignore it and proceed as you described.

^

No, that does not work in reality.

I'm also for the "unscaled!" 1:1 appraoch.

There is also an vital discussion on the german forum.

If only geometry is on the design layer and everything else (texts, dimensions etc.) is in the annotation of the viewport why would it not work?

I'm not talking about texts and dimensions being linked/associative or not, as that is something where I do have an issue with Vectorworks which makes using annotation in viewports being a bit of an uncomfortable exercise at times.

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It's an interesting concept:

to get there though we would need to have better and more sophisticated implementation of:

auto-lineweights

auto-text size

auto-hatch, pattern, fills

auto-view details

auto-dimensioning

auto-constraints

auto-symbol details

etc.

I for one would like the ability to sometimes see / draw sheetlayer dimensions & constraining dimensions in the design layer. It's restrictive currently; to place dimensions as Annotations and not have the benefit of them while designing.

Dims in my world serve two purposes:

to inform the designer during the design process

to inform others afterwards

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

I would be stunned to see design layer scaling go anywhere in the near future. There are some fields that we cater to that could do away with scaling, but since we serve entertainment design, architectural, landscaping, product design and a plethora of other markets, removing layer scaling wholesale is just not feasible across the board and to get rid of it "halfway" just for certain sections of the userbase wouldn't do anyone any good.

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If only geometry is on the design layer and everything else (texts, dimensions etc.) is in the annotation of the viewport why would it not work?

But there will always be scale dependent things on your drawing Layers like

Heliodon Symbols or similar as VW is now.

There could be a global visibility Setting in Quick settings to show Layers in scale

like "zoom line thickness" to check scale appearance and distances of parallel

lines and so on. Printing from Layer scale control is task of the printer driver.

It is that some of the 2D Plan stuff in VW like constrained things will not work

in SLVP.

What I don't get at all is model view, or the need of NOT using it and show Layers

at different scales at one time.

So for us who want scale less Layers, we have to set Layers to 1:100 or 1:50

and check this for imported Layers.

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I For the kind of work I do combined with having to output to specified paper sizes there are some benefits for design layer scales.

Output to specified paper sizes is something everybody needs. Sheet layers are the best way to do that.

I

For example, I can directly see if the drawing will still fit on the required output size or whether I need to change the scale or if the scale is also fixed(happens sometimes) to adjust the design and start splitting things up or whatever else is necessary.

Do you also print from within the design layer or do you just like to visually control while drawing?

I'm just curious - do you use sheet layer at all?

I

Putting all text on a sheet layer in the viewports annotation sometimes does not work for some types of work, it would be a nightmare to deal with.

It doesn't work yet because Vectorworks is not supporting this by now.

I

You can still work the way you prefer, just keep the design layer scale 1:1 and then ignore it and proceed as you described.

Unfortunately this doesn't work yet because Vectorworks doesn't support this consistently.

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I wholeheartedly disagree with getting rid of scales for design layers. For the kind of work I do combined with having to output to specified paper sizes there are some benefits for design layer scales.

For example, I can directly see if the drawing will still fit on the required output size or whether I need to change the scale or if the scale is also fixed(happens sometimes) to adjust the design and start splitting things up or whatever else is necessary. It will also give a good impression of how things will look at output size instead of messing with this afterwards such as in AutoCAD

Putting all text on a sheet layer in the viewports annotation sometimes does not work for some types of work, it would be a nightmare to deal with.

You can still work the way you prefer, just keep the design layer scale 1:1 and then ignore it and proceed as you described.

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I don't think this is a very good idea for the following reasons -

- backwards compatibility. I have drawings dating back to Minicad 5. Most of my early drawings were done with a scaled layer for the drawing and a full size layer for the title block.

- sometime you need to put annotations on a design layer. Most often as notes when sending a file for digital manufacturing.

- I have a hope that eventually you will be able to output for 3d printing based on a design layer's scale....

Kevin

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I think the solution would be to....

...consistently enable working with one scale within all design layers and to enable to make all annotations in the sheet layer.

So it would be possible to make a very clean separation between the (BIM) model and the output.

With that enabled Nemetschek may keep Design Layer scale for backward compatibility and special purposes.

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Output to specified paper sizes is something everybody needs. Sheet layers are the best way to do that.

IF there is a need to output to paper, if not text cannot be at sheet layers to start with. For papers/PDF output sheet layers are in 99% of the cases the preferred way unless it is a small and simple document then it is an option to bypass sheet layers.

From time to time I do not have to deal with output sizes at all because the output is going into other programs such as e.g. GIS software.

Do you also print from within the design layer or do you just like to visually control while drawing?

I'm just curious - do you use sheet layer at all?

Often I have a mandatory paper/PDF output size that I cannot deviate from. In that case it is really convenient to see the page size when drawing and see if it will fit within the output size at the initial scale. If it does not fit I can adjust the scale and continue. If it happens that e.g. I go from 1:20 to 1:25 and then find I have to change to 1:40 I know that legibility issues may start to crop up and take action on that instead of finding out when all is done or while having to switch back and forth between design and sheet layers.

Yes I do use sheet layers 99% of the time when paper/PDF output sizes are required.

Putting all text on a sheet layer in the viewports annotation sometimes does not work for some types of work, it would be a nightmare to deal with.

It doesn't work yet because Vectorworks is not supporting this by now.

It is supported, but it can be very cumbersome to use.

Some of my work requires considerable revamps after review with rearranging quite a bit of objects. Then having texts and dimensions in annotation viewports is simply not convenient as they do not always (read: most of the time not) move along with the objects. I cannot wait with putting in all texts/dimensions until the very end, then having to update multiple viewports becomes a nightmare.

Unfortunately this doesn't work yet because Vectorworks doesn't support this consistently.

I agree Vectorworks can use improvement in this area, but there are lots of uses for Vectorworks other than BIM.

Taking things out because it does not fit a BIM (for buildings) workflow is imho not the way to improve Vectorworks.

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I already work almost entirely in 3d in the design layers and almost everything is annotated on sheet layers. There's nothing stopping you now from setting all of your design layers to 1:1 and working the way you're describing. I already do for many projects. You're asking to remove flexibility, not to add a feature that increases it.

KM

+1

Besides that, sometimes there is a good reason to have design layers having different scales if you want to keep everyting in a single file, it just is a matter of being aware and flexible to deal with that.

I still prefer Vectorworks' way instead of e.g. the AutoCAD way of putting multiple drawings in model space with all annotations on paper space and then not having a clue what belongs to what until you look at the viewports.

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But there will always be scale dependent things on your drawing Layers like Heliodon Symbols or similar as VW is now.

[...]

So for us who want scale less Layers, we have to set Layers to 1:100 or 1:50 and check this for imported Layers.

Vectorworks basically is scale less when it comes to geometry, internally it works at a 1:1 scale similar to AutoCAD etc.

The scale for design layers is just a display thing combined with showing a paper size. If you want you can ignore this and work with Vectorworks similar to AutoCAD.

When I first started using Vectorworks (MiniCAD 5 at the time) I found the way it works a bit too weird for my taste and put it aside for a while. Once I realised what I mentioned above I started to like this way of working for certain things. I also often work way away from the page and then it feels just like working in AutoCAD except that I know what units I am working at and still get real world measurements regardless of the sale I am working in. It avoids the need to draw at a certain scale in AutoCAD in model space as I sometimes encounter in some documents and then having to calculate back to real world dimensions.

What the scale setting does affect is display of text size etc. on design, but it is not really different from annotative text, dimensions etc. in AutoCAD on model space.

Regarding tools like Heliodon, it would be better to improve those in a way that fits what you and others want.

Edited by Art V
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I would be stunned to see design layer scaling go anywhere in the near future. There are some fields that we cater to that could do away with scaling, but since we serve entertainment design, architectural, landscaping, product design and a plethora of other markets, removing layer scaling wholesale is just not feasible across the board and to get rid of it "halfway" just for certain sections of the userbase wouldn't do anyone any good.

Just one example with design layer scaling that is - from my point of view - very annoying.

Let's say you draw a section of a building, scale 1:50.

Then you like to make a detail of the eave in 1:5.

If you use layer scaling you cannot snap to the geometry of the 1:50 section while drawing the detail in 1:5.

So let's keep design layer scaling for backward compatibility but please also enable the option to consistently draw at scale 1:1. This includes 'auto-lineweight' and 'auto-hatch-scale' and the complete range of dims, labels and annotations on sheet-layer viewports.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Why would you draw different portions of the building at different scales in the first place, since you have the option to keep everything at 1:1 already, and thats the default scale?

Apologies, I do not understand the request, it is already possible and quite easy to just not touch the layer scale settings at all. I sort of understand your logic behind it, but that only applies to a very specific scenario and doesn't seem like there would be a huge added benefit over current technology.

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I have used an architectural program that worked without design scale.

It worked fine. The only issue was when setting line weight or text scale. Then you set a size based on a presumed print scale. One could change the scale of a sheet layer and select whether to use the set size or scale from the presumed size.

All that got a bit confusing, but made drawing in model view very simple.

I would recommend some improvement on the text and line weight scaling in viewports. Some help calculating the magnification factor would be nice. Even just a check box "keep text at design layer size" would work, but a pull down with options would be nicer.

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Currently 2016 does center the drawing in screen but does no more zoom to it

automatically when you change views.

If you draw in 1:1 and change from a Viewport 1:100 to a Layer or vice versa you always

have to zoom your drawing in view again. Similar I notice for editing Symbols now.

I think I was a little surprised about Dimension sizes in a 1:1 too.

Together with a heliodon that I remember didn't find again because of an unexpected

size, for me it was clear that working in 1:1 Layers was not practicable.

All the arguments from Layer scale fans on the german forum, which are easier to

understand for me, showed cases which I think should have one of the available

other solutions elsewhere, other than Layer Scale.

The only reason I accept is the legacy issue with older, pre-viewport drawings from

ancient VW versions. But I think Layer scaling should not handicap 1:1 drawing.

And I heard too of users drawing their 1:5 details on drawing Layers beside their

1:100 Layers. Doesn't mean that I see much sense in it.

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Why would you draw different portions of the building at different scales in the first place, since you have the option to keep everything at 1:1 already, and thats the default scale?

Maybe I didn't get the concept of the layer scales correctly.

Isn't it the right way to draw a detail in layer scale 1:5 and the section of the building in 1:50?

If I would use the same scale for both I would not be able to:

- control line weight

- control hatch scale

- label, dim and annotate in the design layer

Not to be misunderstood: I'd love to use one scale and I'd love to label dim an annotate on the sheet layer. But to do that I need some sort of 'display zoom' for hatches and ALL annotation tools should work correctly with all features in the 'annotations' of a viewport on a sheet layer.

Apologies, I do not understand the request, it is already possible and quite easy to just not touch the layer scale settings at all.

Well, as I said before, for example associative dimensioning or the room tool do not work correctly but within the design layers. So if I need to use them I need to set the layer scale.

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Isn't it the right way to draw a detail in layer scale 1:5 and the section of the building in 1:50?

I don't draw 2D plans and haven't any clue ...

You will lose the ability to see when something changed and your Detail is no more up to date.

Plus you can't snap to it if you draw it somewhere else.

Or did you mean to draw details over the geometry and Model View will keep different scaled

Layers in position ?

(Makes more sense to me)

I thought that VW is a BIM Application.

It is promised that this will work down until 1:50 scaling (of construction)

So you will create a 3D Modell and all View, Section and Floor Plans down to 1:50 will fall out

automatically on Viewports, and for details at larger scale you will create a 1:5 Viewport of a

building edge, and draw all missing Lines, Dimensions and Annotations in 2D on a Sheet Layer (?)

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But to do that I need some sort of 'display zoom' for hatches and ALL annotation tools should work correctly with all features in the 'annotations' of a viewport on a sheet layer.

Well, as I said before, for example associative dimensioning or the room tool do not work correctly but within the design layers.

Asking for these items would be very reasonable wishes.... and likely supported by many people here.

Kevin

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I would be stunned to see design layer scaling go anywhere in the near future. There are some fields that we cater to that could do away with scaling, but since we serve entertainment design, architectural, landscaping, product design and a plethora of other markets, removing layer scaling wholesale is just not feasible across the board and to get rid of it "halfway" just for certain sections of the userbase wouldn't do anyone any good.

Thank you, Jim

I use separate scaling of separate layers in almost every document. I am horified by the notion, that I would have to do without.

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I use separate scaling of separate layers in almost every document. I am horified by the notion, that I would have to do without.

Yeah, but why do you use separat scaling of layers? I assume, because it is currently the best way to get your work done.

But probably there were other ways that were even more efficient.

Nobody likes Nemetschek to disable design layer scaling without taking care of the need of customers who do use layer scaling.

The weird thing about layer scaling is: you set a certain scale for a building model that is actually meant to be used for plans and drawings with a whole bunch of scales.

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