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Wall Styles - Vertical Stacking Components

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No problem Jim,

"bug" is a difficult term as there is no counterpart in my language.

So a bug for me is everything that does not work and has a certain severity.

In this case I really thought it to be a bug as for me there was data loss (wall connections)

and I could not imagine that it was designed like this (connections drag save only)

OK, so a Feature Request

The maintaining wall connections when moving walls via the cursor were specifically implemented features ... OIP were not

Ok I see.

In this case, I will lower my Feature Request Priority to very low.

I can live with this, when I am aware of it before I connect thousands of walls.

Before wasting my Feature Wish Credits I prefer to wait until Walls get a general overhaul.

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Hi All,

Here's a challenge for ya'll...

I mentioned earlier that "I will do everything I can to get this in front of the "powers" as it is sorely needed on both the residential and commercial track."

OK

What are those "User requirements" let's call them? I'd like to compile these into something I can present to the Engineering Team so if you'd like to rant, go ahead...:-) but when you're done, write a nice concise paragraph on what's needed.

Diagrams, drawings, etc. are certainly welcome.

OK...Go!

Wes

Edited by Wes Gardner

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Wes,

I'd get an umbrella because I think you are going to be under a lot of rain soon. Raining requests. Will you start a new thread for this?

The simple problem I see is the inability of the Program to bring together all the separate plugins that the program is made up of.

I am an architect and I use the program to document a house from a measured drawing, to design, to Council approval and finally onto construction documents. Much of the drawing needs a lot of patching over the junction say between the stair tool and slab tool for instance. The ramp tool has very limited capabilities. I would love to take the 3D model all the way to construction, but I certainly don't need the whole building documented in detail in 3D, I guess that's why I work over the specific areas in 2D to create the details.

I think having all the plugins working seamlessly would be a great step forward. Having new things like Marionette seems to be just another plugin to me as I am not a programmer and I think you need a programmers mind to use it fully, for me I use the program to allow the Client to walk through their design in 3D then explain the design to the Contractor for them to build.

Typical example of the extra work needed that a 3D mode could do is the elevations. Currently you have to work over the line weights in annotations to produce depth of field visuals, heavy lines to front light behind. Window schedule, the image cant be transposed from the small worksheet onto the drawing as in attached.These are either drawn manually, a symbol created or lately I have been using the section viewport in front of each window to give me the elevation.

Details I guess will always have to be created manually as in our office each house is unique.

I keep thinking that the program is currently a jack of all trades and master of none.

Well that's a start.

Good luck

Edited by Alan Woodwell

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Alan - I certainly agree with your list of Vw shortcomings ^^^ but I am guessing from the topic thread that Wes was specifically asking for "User Requirements" for Vertically Stacking Wall Components inside Wall Styles.

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I would like to rant with you,

and also am not sure about what I should rant exactly,

All Architectural Tools,

Walls only, in general,

or just Vertical Stacking of Walls.

Edited by zoomer

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Zoomer: regarding Wes's invitation I would rant about anything related to Wall Styles, vertically-stacked components or otherwise.

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1.

I'ld like to have a robust wall system based PSMC Solids.

2.

Where Wall Components of same Material will unite automatically when they touch,

on component basis.

3.

With Ends glued together that they don't lose connections when one Wall is moved or rotated,

no matter if graphically or numerical by OIP, until the user actively de-connects them.

4.

where walls are not 2D+Height (2.5D) but real 3D Solid Components

(like Plaster Component on top or 3 mm Asphalt Paper under Masonry Wall, ...)

which, together with #2. will be the basement for Vertical Stacking and Volume/Cost Calculations.

5.

Ability to Move freeestanding Walls along its lentgth, connected Walls according to #3.

6.

Windows and Doors that will automatically Pull the outer Wall Component(s) into their embrasure.

(Or maybe W/D inherit it and these will be part of or created by the Window/Door Component ?)

7.

A Wall Type called Column that will be recognized and treated like a Wall by Space Tool Bucket

and its Core will automatically substracted by Floor Tool or Slab Components (finish floor)

8.

Renounce of the old Left/Right/... Walls Render Texture attributes in Class Settings,

now done by Components/Wall Styles,

or maybe still a Fake Material Option for Rendering of unstyled walls via OIP or

better by Space Tool

(So to say a outer Component that has set Material set not set by Classs but by Space tool)

9.

Bent Walls ???

Edited by zoomer

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10.

Allowing Wall Add Ons like Recess etc. at Wall Ends without disturbing connections.

According to #2.

11.

Walls allowing repeating Elements in Components like Wood Walls (or Slabs/Ceilings)

like the Curtain Wall does.

12.

Panel Generator for Stone, Sheet Metall Facades or Grid Ceilings or Floor Tilings, ....

(#11.+12. = Curtain Wall Tool Tuning or Combination of Wall and Curtain Wall Tool)

13.

Walls along NURBS Curves

(Don't forget the handrail Tool

#1.-4. I call "Auto Boolean"

which should be the standard behavior for all 3D Elements in VW.

If 2 Elements of same Material touch each other, boom, they melt together into one.

No more parametric history like "Add Solids", just a more potential Push Pull Tool

with some more SketchUp-like tools to draw/select Parts of Surfaces to be modified.

If you move in an Element with a higher Priority Material partly, it will bite out out

its Volume into the Element with lower priority Material.

If you pull it back out, the bitten Element can either heal automatically for a certain

amount of time, or you have to heal it manually later with you powerful Push Pull Tool,

as the bitten Element will forget/purge its History after 3 days automatically to

save file size.

Edited by zoomer

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Hi All,

Regarding ranting...bring it on...however, when you're done, like I said, write your paragraph containing user requirements related to stacked components in walls. I've made this thread "sticky" so it should stay up near the top. I'll be monitoring and cutting and pasting from it to develope my list so that I can very clearly outline what you all need/want this thing to do. This will be really helpful in letting me explain to the Engineering Team why we need it and what we need. They're a smart bunch over there in engineering so they'll be able to figure out how to do it.

BTW, pics, sketches, links to videos, whatever you want to use to best explain what you want are fair game ( limited of course to the Board's software capability)

Bring it...

Wes

Edited by Wes Gardner

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Wes,

Ok.

Here is screen shot from other software I use.

As I stated previously, issue is not vertical offset, it is horizontal control of wall components.

You will notice you can control the horizontal and vertical of any of the wall components.

This is a partial screenshot of the wall menu.

This should help.

Rod

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If it is only about vertically stacking,

if you manage somehow, that one Wall can connect (vertical) to more than one wall without interfering,

for example by virtually dividing that Wall into as much vertical Walls as other Walls will dock,

(Maybe even subdevided by Component vertical Offsets)

shouldn't then any kind of Vertical Wall Stacking be possible in itself ?

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Hey All,

Also try to help me work through what the thing might look like in section as well as plan view.

I think we need to consider corbelling,reveals, band courses, belt courses, watertables, changes in coursing/material, etc, etc. as well...

I'm sure there is some limit of possibility, but let's try to "get it all out there" so the engineers can have a look at how we work.

Wes

Edited by Wes Gardner

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I guess this was about Stacked wall but any chance to get comments across that may improve this is not a lost opportunity.

As for Stacked wall maybe I am missing a lot more but can they not be handled in one wall??

See attached

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You can do so much with just one wall with wall projections and wall recesses. You can stack projections over each other in the one wall or put a projection and them put a wall recess in the projection, all while still only using just the one wall style.No need to stack walls, just use one wall.

Actually you can do lots see attached the wall recess internally is hollow. None of this is extruded etc all just one wall and projections or recesses.

Edited by Alan Woodwell

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We need horizontal control over individual wall components.

Currently we do not have that.

As in the examples that have been posted,

Brick 1st component in stacking order

Siding 2nd component in stacking order

The face of the siding butts against the rear of the brick.

There is no way to control the distance between the two components.

Yes, we can add an air space but that just moves the siding away from the brick.

We have no way of moving the siding over or towards the brick.

Vertical stacking is easy, it is not the problem.

Rod

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Hi all,

Just so we're clear on what I mean by "stacked components", my example shows a CMU "back up" or structural wall that runs continuously from top to bottom. The veneer brick components are stacked on top of one another. There is a watertable, a couple of reveals at a brick course and a corbeled out "cornice" at the top. I will want this to run all the way around the building.

The interior, that I've not drawn might be two types of finishes, let's say tile up to 5' and drywall above, the tile will be set on cement board (the tile will then probably project a bit)

Anything else?

Wes

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My proposals may all sound a little futuristic, unrealistic and far from target.

But I am not interested in adding another special feature like vertical stacking

to the current wall tool. I'm looking for a flexible stable core system that will

allow all current AND future needs.

Like there was added once the custom Wall Ends which look fine but will not

be compatible with wall connections. Or you can add pilasters and volumes

to a wall but never in the corners of connected walls where they will mostly

appear in existing buildings.

(Could be solved by wall projections ?)

What I currently don't like is the general Height settings included into the

Wall Styles which will make you create Duplicates of the same Wall Style and

end with nearly the same amount of Wall Styles like your number of Walls.

On the other side I think that is important that everything stays as easy as possible

by keeping ways to draw simple Walls fast,

without restriction for adding Details later.

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But I am not interested in adding another special feature like vertical stacking to the current wall tool. I'm looking for a flexible stable core system that will

allow all current AND future needs.

Zoomer - I will agree with you only so far as that the Wall tool should have a more stable core system, but I disagree that vertical stacking is a 'special feature'.

I feel very strongly that Wall Styles need to be able to have vertically stacked wall components as illustrated in Wes' mockup example.

To accurately represent any actual built wall construction requires vertically stacking wall components for which you can set both their horizontal and vertical offsets. Currently we can only set the vertical offset, which is insufficient to represent actual built wall construction.

Both ArchiCad and Revit have long had this capability, there's no reason that Vw should not.

If implemented properly, it would not be something that you have to use if you don't want to. You can still have a simple wall no different from what we have currently.

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Hi all,

Just so we're clear on what I mean by "stacked components", my example shows a CMU "back up" or structural wall that runs continuously from top to bottom. The veneer brick components are stacked on top of one another. There is a watertable, a couple of reveals at a brick course and a corbeled out "cornice" at the top. I will want this to run all the way around the building.

The interior, that I've not drawn might be two types of finishes, let's say tile up to 5' and drywall above, the tile will be set on cement board (the tile will then probably project a bit)

Anything else?

Wes

Wes - thanks for the mockup example, you're definitely on the right track.

To follow your example wall construction, I would add on the interior side of the CMU:

  • metal furring channels (could be represented by just an airspace);
  • gypsum wall board (constrained to underside of structure above or 6" above ceiling);
  • ceramic wall tile up to 5'-0" AFF;
  • ceramic tile wall base (a 2D symbol so that the profile can be changed from the Resource Browser);
  • ceramic tile trim at the top of the wall tile @ 5'-0" AFF (also a 2D symbol);
  • wood crown molding, constrained to the underside of ceiling (also a 2D symbol).

In addition to adding components to walls, we should also be able to add 'reveals' to Wall Styles, so that we can remove select parts of wall components. (Functionaly it would be similar to the Wall Recess tool, but different in that it would be applied to a Wall Style). For example: control joint / reveals in exterior cement plaster; decorative reveals in gypsum wall board.

It would be ideal if all of the textures for the wall components could be individually controlled with the Attribute mapping tool. This way, for example, you could align the mortar joints in the ceramic wall trim and base with the ceramic wall tile joints.

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Zoomer - I will agree with you only so far as that the Wall tool should have a more stable core system, but I disagree that vertical stacking is a 'special feature'.

Im searching for words :)

I didn't meant that at all, vertical stacking as kind of useless feature.

I meant that it doesn't get included as another special, separate or isolated

feature.

So like the feature that allowed to drag walls and keeping their connections.

This does solely work graphically not numerically. Rotating doesn't work at all.

I may be completely wrong,

for me that looks like that drag wall feature was more implemented into the

Select/Drag Tool instead of the Wall. If I would ask for doing the same in OIP

maybe OIP would need an expansion of Wall Connection features.

I'm looking for a system that walls connect intelligently automatically when they

touch or cross. Not because the Cursor hits another Wall while drawing a Wall.

This way it would not matter if I drag a Wall by Drag Tool or by OIP,

or if I rotate, scale or even bend the Wall,

or what will be needed in the future.

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If there will be a 2D Wall Style definition like my sketch proposes,

you will need a bunch of vertical and horizontal "Levels"

Just like we have "Story Levels".

And even as it is,

if you have about 8 Story Levels, it gets quite confusing with all multiplied

by "story above" and "story below", when you choose your parametric Levels

for Object and Component Heights.

So I vote for Story Level settings seen for all Tools,

but separate Component Levels that you will see/activate for the Tools needed.

So Wall Levels, only seen in Wall Style Tool, horizontal and vertical.

(And why not the same for the third dimension)

And if there will be a System of Auto Connections By Priorities,

(I have see this so far by setting 3 digit Numbers while creation in a table)

I see it as a List, like existing Layer List with stacking order where each new

Component Material will be added and can be ordered by changing stacking order.

Which would be really simple, If you have just plaster, masonry, concrete and insulation.

And a "Material" is a Systemwide Material Definition like in reality or BIM,

containing all Information like :

Cost, Weight, Energy Information, ...., including Renderworks Texture.

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If the current wall style dialogue had added to it the ability to have the vertical stacking as well as the horizontal that allowed each stacked component to sit any where within the wall thickness as well as the height this could work, Plus adding the ability to add the reveals.

The elevation should be shown also similar to the window/Door setup.

See attached for possible setup.

Edited by Alan Woodwell

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