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MHBrown

3D doesn't seem to work

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I'm trying to work more directly in 3D and I'm running into problems. I found the tool set with the 3D tools (Set Working Plane, Push-Pull, etc.), but nothing works in an intuitive manner. I did manage to set the working plane to 45 degrees, but when I drew a 3D rectangle on that plane I could not extrude it. It refused any manipulation at all, but let's just limit this question to extrude. The extrude command doesn't work (though it should), the Push-Pull command doesn't work (again, it also needs a redesign so that it does.) Next I tried drawing a 2D polygon. Nope. Nothing works on that, either. I can extrude this 2D, but the extrude command ignores that I'm in a different working plane and extrudes it as if I were in the default screen plane. What?

In the 3D tool set I can draw exotic things like spheres, hemispheres and cones—but no rectangles! What? This is a total mess so far. Clearly the designers at NNM and I have radically different views on what is "intuitive" so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction. Right now, I'm 100 percent disappointed with the 3D tools and I'm hoping to change that.

Thanks for any help.

MH Brown

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Thanks, Bas, but that is exactly what I tried and is exactly what is not working. Ctl-e does not extrude (at least not in accordance with the working plane) and the Push-Pull tool does nothing to a 3D polygon. It doesn't actually seem to do anything at all to 3D objects.

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Im not behind my computer / VW at the moment, so I will try to explain it...

Vectorworks is pretty intuitive, but has a lot of options and different ways of creating and organizing things. At first this can seem to be counter productive / less intuitive, but it gives you a lot of freedom to create your designs in your own way and that's a part of the 'power' of VW.

First a general thing:

3 polygons, I never use them. If I`m correct they are a part of vectorworks because its part of other 3d packages. Not because its the best way to model things in VW.

But your question:

I think I know why your extrude isn't going in the right direction.

In VW you can draw 2d objects on the screen plane, layer plane, or an other working plane. At first this seems a bit odd, but when you get the hang of it it becomes a powerful tool.

Vectorworks%202012ScreenSnapz006.jpg

Vectorworks%202012ScreenSnapz005.jpg

Screen plane is only for 2d drawings and always 'glued' to your screen.

Before you draw a rectangle you can change on which plane you draw:

Vectorworks%202012ScreenSnapz002.jpg

Lets try something:

- Go to a front view

- set the working plane to layer plane

- draw a 2d rectangle

- extrude the rectangle with the push pull tool or ctrl-E

If I'm correct the object is now extruded in the correct direction.

Hereby some in-depth info:

http://app-help.vectorworks.net/2015/NNA/eng/index.htm#t=VW2015_Guide%2FViews%2FUnderstanding_the_Working_Plane.htm&rhsearch=working%20plane%20&rhhlterm=working%20plane%20&rhsyns=%20

http://app-help.vectorworks.net/2015/NNA/eng/index.htm#t=VW2015_Guide%2FViews%2FThe_Active_Planes_List.htm%23XREF_60864_The_Active_Planes&rhsearch=working%20plane%20&rhsyns=%20

http://app-help.vectorworks.net/2015/NNA/eng/index.htm#t=VW2015_Guide%2FObjects_edit2%2FExtruding_Objects.htm&rhsearch=extrude&rhhlterm=extrude&rhsyns=%20

Hope this helps a bit.

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Extrude does not work on 3d polys. Source object for extrude must be a 2d object.

One way to "extrude" a 3d poly is to use the Shell tool in the 3d tool palette. Source 3d poly must be closed and have fill color assigned.

Push Pull tool is for use on faces of 3d objects. It has several modes. Try the first two (Extrude Face and Move Face). 3rd mode (Sub Face Mode) requires drawing geometry on a 3d surface. Push/pull in 1st 2 modes can "extrude" a planar 3d poly if it is closed and filled.

To work on a non standard working plane, establish the new plane, eg with the working plane tool, AND, choose that working plane as the active plane via the Active Plane pulldown in the view bar.

Here's the Help link showing the VWX workspace identifying the various parts of the drawing window:

file:///Applications/Vectorworks%202015/VWHelp/HTML5/index.htm#t=VW2015_Guide%2FStart%2FThe_Vectorworks_Workspace.htm%23XREF_14111_The_Vectorworks

Toggling between layer and screen planes is very useful for forming and manipulating both 2d and 3d objects.

More detail available as needed. Just ask!

-B

Edited by Benson Shaw

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Extrude does not work on 3d polys. Source object for extrude must be a 2d object.

Just have to throw in that I think this behavior is not acceptable.

I question the whole concept of different 2D, 2,5D and 3D types

of "2D" Geometry that can't be reasonably converted.

Edited by zoomer

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Extrude does not work on 3d polys. Source object for extrude must be a 2d object.

Just have to throw in that I think this behavior is not acceptable.

I question the whole concept of different 2D, 2,5D and 3D types

of "2D" Geometry that can't be reasonably converted.

The reason it doesn't work is because a 3d polygon isn't necessarily planar. You can't extrude a non planar surface. You can Shell it as Benson says. 3d polygons aren't really designed for what the original poster is trying to do anyway.

For the original poster, I would suggest that the best way to start learning 3d in VW is to extrude from the layer plane or screen plane and rotate the object into place. Extruding can be done using the Extrude command or using the first mode of the Push/Pull tool. Objects can be easily rotated into other orientations. Turn off automatic working plane and practice this way first.

Automatic working planes and Push/Pull are powerful but not really the place to start learning 3d. You have to remember that when working this way with circles, rectangles, polylines and polygons, VW isn't drawing 3d shapes, its drawing 2d planar shapes in 3d space. This is a big distinction from other pieces of software. Its essentially an interim workaround......

Kevin

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The reason it doesn't work is because a 3d polygon isn't necessarily planar. You can't extrude a non planar surface.

Of course I can - in a 3D CAD or 3D Modeler - just not in VW

95% of 3D Polgons created are planar anyway.

A hint that VW does not like to extrude them, if they are non planar, would

be a beginning - if it would treat all planar like "2D" polygons.

These are the most basic 3D modeling functions, before I would even think

about adding any bend or SubD tools.

Other software doesn't even differentiate about rectangles laying on the floor,

being rotated or being "3D" but planar.

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just not in VW

That's exactly my point and what the original poster needs to know.

95% of 3D Polgons created are planar anyway.

A hint that VW does not like to extrude them, if they are non planar, would

be a beginning - if it would treat all planar like "2D" polygons.

These are the most basic 3D modeling functions, before I would even think

about adding any bend or SubD tools.

Other software doesn't even differentiate about rectangles laying on the floor,

being rotated or being "3D" but planar.

I agree completely. We are both saying the same thing. In other programs like Autocad and Rhino, there are no 2d shapes. Everything is 3d. VW is behaving like a poorly designed version of Inventor where 3d models start from 2d "sketches". The layer plane/screen plane implementation is a programmer's workaround and I've been told it will be superseded eventually. Unfortunately VW holds on to legacy aspects instead of dropping them and moving on so it will be around for a while regardless.

All of your thoughts are great wish list items. Many have already been wished for by me, you and others.

KM

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Thanks to everyone's input. I've been using MiniCAD/VW since 1994, so I pretty much do everything everyone is suggesting. I could actually add a few things. It looks like I made the assumption that VW2013 had become more Form-Z like in the jump form 2011 and that it was more of a 3D molder now. Clearly it has not changed after all. There are some things that simply don't work, however. When I'm in "Screen Plane" for example and I'm in a side elevation the positive "X" direction is no longer to my right. It is into or out of the screen, I don't remember. This was never the case in the previous 20 years of MC/VW. That is a small matter, however.

I appreciate everyone's input. I thought I needed to change with the changes in VW, but I see that isn't really true. The 3D aspect of VW is still something of a secondary benefit in what is essentially software for drawing in 2D and that is fine with me. I have to remind myself that it is a great value for the money. My brother is a tech for AutoDesk and that software is probably 20 times as expensive as VW. Thanks so much!

MHBrown

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Sorry Kevin, I misunderstood you.

We ask for the same improvements.

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Hi,

Your comment "The 3D aspect of VW is still something of a secondary benefit in what is essentially software for drawing in 2D"

Is certainly not a true reflection of the value of Vectorworks, or indeed any of the programs out there. Drawing the building 3D allow you to produce all the 2D plans elevations and sections with ease and you save huge amount of time in the production IF YOU are willing to put in the yards to learn the capabilities of the program. I am in the commercial world and have documented from a 12,000 seat multi-purpose Indoor Arena to Residential and the use of 3D has been invaluable.

All things are possible you just have to open the mind.

I hope you can become a believer and see the light.

Please don't take this as a criticism of any kind.

Kind Regards

Alan

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