Worksheet with IFC entity psets

[ida]

Hi,

Does anybody know if its possible to create a worksheet (door/Window schedule) with the IFC entity psets?

It would be good not to type in the informations twice. Like fire and acoustic rating. If you want the info to follow into the IFC model you have to type it in under "IFC Data", "Object properties", "Pset_DoorCommon" (if its a door). And you can fill in fire and acoustic properties. Here also the "type" in the IFC file is edited under "reference".

To edit the ID Tag under the object info pallet is not a problem that follows the IFC file, but if you use "settings" to fill inn "data" about fire rating it does not follow the IFC model.

So if I´m going to do a worksheet only the "settings" data follows not the data under Psets. Is it possible to get the info in the Pset into the worksheet? To type it twice is a source for mistakes.

Ida

[ida]

Hi,

I have found a way to do this after a lot of trial and error and some help from one of my colleges.

By using some preset reports. You find it under the Resource Browser.

You browse for a new document and find it under Vectorworks 2015-Libraries-Defualts-Reports/Schedules-Architectural Reports.

Choose the file Architectural Reports and under Resources you now find a worksheet called "Objects with IFC Entity- Specific».

I only wanted a worksheet with doors to start with so I deleted all the other info in the worksheet.

You are now left with a worksheet showing Layer, Class, IfcEntity Type, Name, Description.

Name and Description are info found under IFC Data and Data sets for IfcDoor.

To get extra info that you type in to your IFC Data, you now just need to change the database formula and ad as many new columns as you need.

An example

The formula for getting Fire Rating

You type in the Fire Rating under IFC Data. Mark Pset_DoorCommon to be Use under «Data Sets for this object».

Under «Properties for selected Data Set» you click FireRating and fill it in under «String values for selected property».

In the worksheet you can get this info to be shown by using the formula =GETIFCPROPERTY('Pset_DoorCommon.FireRating’)

To get other info you change Pset_DoorCommon and FireRating to the info that you want to show.

The only problem I found with using this in comparison with filling in the info to the door under settings is that you cant change the info in the worksheet.

Do anybody know if this is possible?

You can change the info on several doors by selecting them and changing the info in the IFC Data pallet.

By doing this you don't need to fill in the information twice if you want woorksheets to use as schedules and also need to ad the info to your IFC model.

Ida

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Currently, you cannot edit the IFC record data via the two-way database worksheets.

It's a known issue and we are trying to improve the workflow. Can't make any promises on when and how, though...

[gester]

hi,

an additional question: how to retrieve an object data and populate the ifc psets with it?

the assigning of the record format (say, take-off data record) doesn't have any influence on psets' values, the same (zero) effect is the choice of this record in the 'manage custom property sets' in the ifc data dialog. this assignment disappears after the ifc data dialog is closed.

does anybody have a viable procedure how to use the ifc functionality in exporting the full object data for interoperability?

i understand there are ifc entities with predefined, noneditable values, but how to use those values, and any user-added object ones, for data exchange?

when i send an ifc model, there is no further way to communicate the data as via the ifc psets themselves, or am i missing something?

thx,

rob

Edited May 4, 2015 by gester

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Hi Robert,

I'm not sure I understand, but I'll try to convey what I think you want to know....

When you use the "Export IFC Project..." command, any standard Psets attached to an object will be exported. To attach a Pset to an object, use the "IFC Data..." command and make sure there is a checkmark next to the desired Pset. See attached image.

Custom Record Formats can be turned into custom Psets by following the 2015 Help "Using Custom IFC Property Sets".

We're also working on developing a "IFC Guide for Vectorworks Users" to hopefully explain all of this is clear, easy to follow detail. Be on the lookout for it...

When you say you are looking for "full object data for interoperability" do you mean native-system-to-native-system bi-directional translation of all objects and parameters? If so... we're not there...yet. There is quite a bit of magic involved in trying to do that. For the moment, we are focusing on referencing (design coordination) and downstream data workflows (analysis, fabrication, FM).

[gester]

jeff: either i don't see the connections, or are those data sources not correlated with one another.

we have, say, a door object with its user dataset in the settings dialog (door_data.png attachment)

we have the record sets for this door, i choose 'material take-off' one, although (btw) i expect the data preparation for exchanges functionality to be implemented for me in the first place (door_material_take-off_record.png attachment)

we have ifc property sets that don't mirror anything set up in the user settings for this door object (door_one_ifc_pset.png, door_another_one_ifc_pset.png attachments). the measurements of the door are both 0.000, the glazing thickness 0.000, no fire rating, no nothing from the user defined values from the settings' dialog.

now please tell me anybody, how am i supposed to get, say, the door fire rating (happen to be 'ei30' in the settings) to be visible in the ifc model of the building?

how can the user data fields be automatically exported to the model? do i have to choose any other psets or even create new ones? who is supposed to know these exact procedures in any standard architectural office?

thanks in advance for any clue.

rob

[gester]

ok, i'm just reading the 'IFC Handbook-templated' and there is a hint to the missing automatic assignment for the door object.

the suggestion is to: 'assign the appropriate Pset and fill in the fields.'

so this brings me to the question: which pset is an appropriate one for the door object to be ifc-exported properly?

a collateral question would be like this: what do i have the door settings for, when they don't get exported?

thx,

rob

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Hi Rob,

That current document is in the process of being superseded by an "IFC Guide for Vectorworks Users". It will have an explicit listing of which parameters are automatically mapped from all the native Vectorworks BIM object to IFC fields for export. Please be patient as this is a LARGE scope of knowledge. I hope to push it out, in pieces, over the summer.

Unfortunately, Vectorworks Doors and Windows are so complex in the scope and breadth of their data fields, we haven't had a chance to automatically map them all yet. This is a known issue and we're trying to address it.

The settings are still valuable to many users for internal workflows but I agree we need to step up to make them work better for IFC-based workflows.

[ida]

Hi Rob,

This is the issue that I explained on top. I see you have put a lot of effort on typeing info on the doors in the door settings menu.

I did a trial with that and realized no info added here is following the IFC model. We are going to only type in the info in the IFC data using the Pset_DoorCommon. Here you can fill in fire rating, acoustic rating, and handicap accessibility. Here also the "Type"in the ifc file can be set under "Reference". The "Name" in the IFC file is actually set under settings or the object info pallet under ID tag "ID Prefix, "ID Label", "ID Suffix".

And setting up the door schedules like I explained above. Whit the limitation that you cant edit directly in the woork sheet. Jeffrey this need to be sortet in VW2016!

Ida

[gester]

ida,

thanks for your feedback.

the trouble is, that in order to speed up the implementation of bim in our country (and to make vectorworks a viable solution) we have to keep things simple. architects are spoiled by the autocad-2d-mentality, and i don't think they will try 3 different places to insert the important data. unfortunately the most common understanding is the parameters' dialog of each element as a starting point for nd data modelling.

it's really hard to force the artists (the architects regard themselves as such) to learn the rules of object-oriented programming (ifc hierarchies and their psets). and the data records are adding to the confusion.

so you're right, ida: jeff, this chaos must be cleared in the most simple and understandable way.

rob

[gester]

one more thing:

in revit there is something called an 'ifc mapping file'. it consists of simple text strings with 3 entries for each row:

ifc_common_propertyset_nameifc_property_namerevit_property_name

i don't really know revit and its ifc import/export functionality (and it should be years back, facing the deprecation of this format for years by autodesk), but this principle looks pretty logical. i don't want to suggest anything, but there must be an easy way like this to proceed, doesn't it?

i know the (newly created) record sets should have doubled inserts for the vw properties and for ifc ones, but it doesn't seem to work easy enough...

rob

Edited May 16, 2015 by gester

[ida]

Hi Rob,

I do agree it should be much simpler to connect the" ifc info" and the "vectorworks info". It should be the same thing.....

Did you by the way see my other post about ifc ceiling grids?

Since you're modeling seems to be quite advanced and similar to mine. I would think you would have the same issue. My local vectorworks guy is on the case and have done a trial, but it does not export correctly in ifc.... He has taken the issue further to VW.

Ida

[gester]

ida,

i've considered available options and i see for instance that there's no other way 'round as to edit the ifc psets for custom objects. actually i don't see the possibility to activate the oip parameters for objects modelled in 3d tools, and not having the standard features.

we still have the record sets as the third data source and i start to believe i can really follow the trouble of the application developers when it comes to data modelling.

we probably need (and will need) all three data inputs. but i'd gladly take potluck with nv. unfortunately the architects will have to pay for it with lots of hours of the additional learning. i have a few years as a software engineer behind me, so i can't be that objective, other architects will surely have their challenge with it.

and yes, i've seen the parallel thread. i am sure we can get such tool in the next releases.

rob

[gester]

but if oip could be that flexible to gather all necessary information chunks and still be able to forward them to the ifc, i'd really welcome it...

[rDesign]

Hi Rob,

That current document is in the process of being superseded by an "IFC Guide for Vectorworks Users". It will have an explicit listing of which parameters are automatically mapped from all the native Vectorworks BIM object to IFC fields for export. Please be patient as this is a LARGE scope of knowledge. I hope to push it out, in pieces, over the summer.

Unfortunately, Vectorworks Doors and Windows are so complex in the scope and breadth of their data fields, we haven't had a chance to automatically map them all yet. This is a known issue and we're trying to address it.

The settings are still valuable to many users for internal workflows but I agree we need to step up to make them work better for IFC-based workflows.

@Jeffrey W Ouellette: I was wondering if there has been any progress made on producing that "IFC Guide for Vectorworks Users" document you mentioned. Thanks.

[ida]

Jeffrey,

Is it possible to get a work in progress version of this "IFC Guide for Vectorworks Users"?

Rob

Have you got to any solutions on the door issue? I am now trying to figure out if its possible to get the fire rating of the IFC menu into the VW door object as text on the drawing. Was thinking that it must be possible since you can get it into a worksheet. Could you do a record format that is linked to the IFC entity p_set? And put that info on the door in the drawing as a symbol?

Ida

Ps still on 2015 on this project, but moving it over to 2016 soon.

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Question for all,

Would you prefer to have a PDF version, after all the information has been written, edited, reviewed, corrected, reformatted and published...

or

Web-based (maybe Wiki-style?) work in progress, growing and changing as information is added and revised?

Understanding this from the end user point of view might help us make greater moves forward and get the info in your hands.

[michaelk]

Wiki

How long will any document be current after publishing?

mk

[Art V]

Would it be possible to have both depending on how you put the information together?

A web-based wiki style setup might be best for now as it keeps things up-to-date and we would get some info already to get started, especially for those of us somewhat new to IFC.

The downside may be that depending on the information already available it may be a bit all over the place with gaps that will be filled later. This might make it less easy to grasp for those new to IFC.

Otoh, a structured book-style PDF might be useful too once the web-based version is mostly final (there will always be some updates I assume) as it "forces" you to work from start to finish with things in "proper" order.

In the civil engineering area Autodesk is trying to push the use BIM for projects too and IFC may be one way to go (Autodesk is "suggesting" to use Revit for this). Not sure if I should be happy about that though (the Revit suggestion) :-)

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

There is also an option to format it as the HTML Help is currently provided.

Maybe it is a two-step process, getting the initial info out via publicly-accessible Wiki, building over a reasonable period of time and then reformatting to the HTML Help version when "complete". At that point it is relatively easy to update and push...

Edited October 15, 2015 by Jeffrey W Ouellette

[ida]

Jeffrey,

It could be an addition to app.help. It would also be good to have a booklet type like you a´have done for "Best practice for workgroup BIM using Vectorworks", but then I guess there must be different themes since BIM grasps a lot.

For me as an architect using BIM figuring out where to put the info in Vectorworks so it exports correctly has been the most difficult thing.

There are a lot of questions that I had to raise on the forum, with the local Vectorworks distributor or just had to figure it out my self.

Issues:

What exports form the OIP or settings on doors, slabs, windows, what IFC entity p_sets must be filled out (figured out with trial and error), how to export grid lines (something I would never have figured out if it was not for the forum, this has to be explained in a Help!), how to do worksheets with IFC entity p_sets (figured out with trial and error...)

And again is it possible to get a work in progress paper? Or should I ask my local distributer? For our office to continue the Vectorworks it is very important that the IFC part of Vectorworks is developed.

Ida