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J. Wallace

Cinema 4D users feedback wanted...

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Hi all

I have just started a trail version of Cinema 3D to see what it's all about. I loaded up one of my recent designs.

My question for you is what do you typically use Cinema 4D for?

Refining renders, materials? Love to hear what people are doing. Thanks :)

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Hello,

I've used it to render for a few years. To start with I was modelling in VW (as I was already comfortable with the 3D workflow of it) and exporting to C4D for final renders/tweaks. Since then I've switched completely to C4D/vRay and don't use VW for 3D at all.

This transition started out due to something rather silly; I disliked the capabilities of VW when it came to vegetation. Eventually I realised there are some more sensible benefits such as speed of modelling/tweaking, material control, and lighting options.

It's an amazing tool and I'd highly recommend giving it your time.

Here's a couple shots showing progression:-

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Hi HP Sauce

Thanks for the feedback. I have a question for you if you don't mind...

Are you still performing 2D work in VW for overhead top/plan drawings?

You shots look great especially the last one with all the vegetation...Lots to learn as I'm just diving into this. I have used VW since we started our business back in 1996, been very happy with it. In the last couple of years I've taken to using more of the 3D abilities which my client love. I saw this clip in the other day which brought my attention to C4D.

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Hello

i often meet such videos made in game engines or based at it, like Lumion. Architect prepared "volume", project docs in archicad, revit and etc., then made presentation by himself or by assistant-visualzer in lumion and speak with clients with showing of project's presentation.

I'm beginning rare to use C4D standalone in my works :(.

Before i used it for example to make organic forms with non-organic characteristics. Sample, need to make artificial rock-wall. I used sculpting and explode geometry by xPlode plug-in in c4d - It got form like if i used displacement but it was really realistic and procedural.

But today, game engine got physical based rendering(PBR), AO and etc. If needs flora - speedtree flora tech. in lumion - http://byzantos.com/speedtree/

http://byzantos.com/lumion-45-the-garden/

(i'm sorry for bad English)

Edited by Ilay

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C4D cannot make 2d plans and elevations with dimensions, notes, etc. That's really where the workflow lies. Do the model and renderings in c4d, export the model and make your plates in VW. Campaign loudly for Vw and C4D to be interchangeable.

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I assume you're a garden/landscape specialist? In that case modeling in C4D can make sense, yes.

But C4D is no good at the typical "architectural" modeling (or technical modeling, for that matter), since you cannot "draw" your objects AND give them the correct dimensions while drawing. If you'd try to create, for instance, a wall, then in Vectorworks you can define the start and end point with the exact coordinates (position), and be done with it. In C4D, you can't. Either you will place an object (for instance a cube) and fiddle around with the parameters until it has the right dimension and position, or you draw it with linear curves, but then you can't enter values for your control points while drawing - you'd have to tweak each point after completing the curve.

If accurate dimensions don't matter, you can do all your 3D work in C4D.

To be clear: I'm not saying C4D is inaccurate, I'm just saying it's not geared towards your typical architectural modeling. It lacks a couple of features to pull that off.

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Have to disagree with BaRa here. C4d is every bit as accurate as VW. You can "draw" your objects and then tweak on them. But. It is a program more geared toward free form modelling rather than architecture. So the program does not have the tools that VW has to enhance that process.

By the same token, I would say that VW is not a program geared toward free form modelling and rendering. You can do it, but it's not set up to make the process pleasurable or efficient.

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Thanks to everyone for that helpful advice...so it sounds like C4D is a great rendering and modeling tool. Being at the beginning stage of learning this program I'm not sure how it outputs its rendering? Perhaps it has to export back into a VW viewport?

I guess my motivation to explore this software came out of the above movie clip. Being a landscape designer I'm looking at improving the way I present my ideas, particularly when it comes to plant material. I've attached an image showing a rough concept for everyone interest.

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From C4D your output would traditionally be the finished image or video directly, no need to pass it back to Vectorworks if its being finished in C4D.

Users WANT to be able to round-trip models between Vectorworks and C4D however. This has been requested a number of times and is now being heavily reviewed by engineering, but I do not think there is a full satisfactory workflow for back-and-forth yet.

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For those out there that use Cinema 4d with VWs, staring in 4d for modeling then importing to VWs, what is the best approach?

It seems that only mesh and polygons can be imported and are often overly complex than if the same object was created in VWs.

I can't seem to find a workable solution without having to recreate the object in VWs.

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Yes. That's a problem. I have had from time to time had to hire a "clean up" guy, that essentially traced my model in 3d. Very much not a good workflow.

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Have to disagree with BaRa here. C4d is every bit as accurate as VW. You can "draw" your objects and then tweak on them. But. It is a program more geared toward free form modelling rather than architecture. So the program does not have the tools that VW has to enhance that process.

I'm afraid you misread what I wrote. I said you cannot give it the proper dimensions WHILE DRAWING. You can model anything you like, but you cannot do it like an architect would do in a CAD package. C4D doesn't offer the same kind of speed when it comes to architectural modeling (read: designing a building while you draw, taking care of accurate dimensions) as Vectorworks.

While we're on the topic af accuracy: no, C4D isn't as accurate as Vectorworks. It has been a long standing issue for some modelers, even back when I was still in C4D's beta test group.

Edited by BaRa

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BaRa, you're wrong,we can use arch.tools and plug-ins in c4d

there are:

1. native new polypen tool in v.16 and snapping with guides

2. from Japanese developer - DragPrimitives/-Splines - example of solid wall -

web site - http://coffeestock.lk6.co/Blog/?page_id=19

3. or extensions from Caleidos4d - http://www.caleidos4d.it/plugin_cinema4d.htm#estensioni

No, I'm not wrong. Sorry, but the tools you list do not fit the regular architect's workflow. The polypen is a great tool - I agree (although I still miss some of the features that Per-Anders Edwards introduced back in the days with his polygon plugins). So are the plugins you listed. But all these tools do, is either allow you to SNAP and modify the way that snapping behaves, or to insert preconfigured objects, or to draw polygons faster. It does not, however, allow you do draw a wall-like object and define it's length WHILE DRAWING. That is quintessential for fast drawing - and for architecture.

BTW, did you know there's a nifty Xpresso-based tool in the presets of the Visualize bundle, called House Builder? It offers a genuine speedup, but again it falls short in the department of an architect's workflow. It isn't geared at architects either, MAXON confirmed that during their pre-R16 meetings. In that regard, Sketchup would still be better than C4D. But why would you use Sketchup when you have the power of Vectorworks :-)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big C4D-advocate, but comparing it to Vectorworks when it comes to modeling is really apples and oranges.

Edited by BaRa

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From C4D your output would traditionally be the finished image or video directly, no need to pass it back to Vectorworks if its being finished in C4D.

Users WANT to be able to round-trip models between Vectorworks and C4D however. This has been requested a number of times and is now being heavily reviewed by engineering, but I do not think there is a full satisfactory workflow for back-and-forth yet.

You're right, and if there would have been a straightforward way, it would have been implemented a long time ago :)

C4D is a polygon based modeler. And as most poly modelers, it only supports faces with up to 4 vertices. A face with more than 4 gets automatically (internally) split. You might no see those seams in C4D, but they're there nonetheless (you can show those seams in the viewport via Filter > N-Gon lines). When you export the geometry, you get a mix of triangles and so-called "quads" - regardless of how smooth your surface looks in C4D. Because even if you use the C4D "NURBS", this is just a smoothing algorithm on top of a polygon cage.

As long as C4D doesn't support real solids and real NURBS, getting the information back into VW in a transparent will remain difficult.

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I would have to agree with BaRa here ... having used both VW and C4D for a few years. I am not knocking C4D - I love it. But modeling stuff in it can be a royal pain sometimes. VW is much more user friendly and fast and accurate when modeling architectural things. Things like scale, or even being able to read info as inches AND feet. Until fairly recently, modeling to scale with precise dimensions was a stranger in the C4D world. I can't tell you how many tutorials I did where 2000 meter trees were modeled, or 400 foot mailboxes. And almost everything is done "by eye". The old "that looks about right" school of design. It is changing now as more and more architects get involved with C4D. But that is the world it came from. And the world it is designed for. So you have to adapt to it a bit. It can be frustrating. VW is for Architects. C4D is for Artists. The proper tool for the job (although there are a lot of great Architectural plugins being developed for C4D. It is trying to get a foothold in the Architectural world). I couldn't live without both. And I really, really, really, really would love them to seamlessly work together and be able to pass models back and forth easily and without losing data. But perhaps that's just pie in the sky wishful thinking for now. But oh what if ...

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How is the learning curve on C4D? Currently I model and render stage set designs fully in VW. The renders are OK, but I know they could look a lot better in terms of texture and lighting in C4D. Would I need a few days, a few weeks, or a few months of learning to export my VW models into C4D and make them great?

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I'd say its steep at first. You could get good results in a few weeks but to really learn C4D would take months. Getting the VW model into C4D is the easy part. But there are lots of great C4D tutorials online, much moreso than VW. Check out a demo version and the tutorials on this site - greyscalegorilla.com - they are invaluable when learning C4D.

Kevin

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If you're just bringing your models in and want to texture, light, and render a scene, I would think you could get up to speed in a few months. But to really learn all of C4D you need years (and years) to know it well. It is a much more complicated program than VW. Especially textures/materials.

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It was very easy in former C4D Versions to bring in CAD Models

for rendering. It got a little more complicated with GI and now

the new reflexion system.

But I think it should work in a few days to render at least the

quality you are used in VW.

But I really like a reduced Material system and UI like in VW for

architectural renderings.

The materials in C4D look more complicated as it needs to be.

Btw,

If you bring in your render ready model from VW to C4D, it will

look nearly completely same as in VW, without any further work

to do.

If you can make use of C4D in your workflow and it fits in your

budget - go for it !

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Sorry to keep this going but, has anyone used the "House Builder" in Cinema 4d?

Any thoughts, opinions in comparison with VWs for sketching quick design ideas?

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