Beta testers unite

[jnr]

So it seems we are once again careening down the same path as 9.0 despite promises that this was a stable release. The momentum seems to be building with the accumulation of complaints about some pretty basic stability issues. Once again we are going to spend thousands of dollars in lost billable time diagnosing problems that should have been caught by beta testers who are paid to find this stuff.

What are your plans for a bug repair release?

[defjef]

I think it is unwise to rush out and buy the new release of a program before it has been really

around for a while. You need to examine your CAD needs and what is missing in what you are using it for. New releases are SUPPOSED to be productivity increases... giving you new tools.. or improving functionalality of the existing ones. I am still stuck in the 8's and have been duped in ordering 9 right when it was announced. I find 8.52 works very well.. and I am still learning to use the tools it offers. Yes I woulkd like some things work better and differently... but when I tried the 9 it seemd like a disaster and apparently it was. Frankly I resent the approach of these software companies who must spend enormous amounts of money developing new versions of the same software... and then sell "upgrades" to their "subscribers." Having to spend $500 every couple of years is like a lifetime subscription. Automobile techology has changed very little and autos have evolved very slowy for 100 years... most of the changes have been in styling and monitoring and control oif the mechanics and the interior environment. Cars dont last... they wear out. Software does not break and wear out. We are reaching a place where we feel compelled to produce more and more in less time. When will this end?

I think it is unconscionable and unethical for the software companies to keep hitting up the old customers for "upgrades"... especially at the prices they are charging.

I say.. let the NEW users pay the costs of the NEW products. We have ALREADY paid for the development of the upgrade. Where do you suppose the revenue came from to pay the development ocsts of the last release? Do you think that Neme went out and borrowed millions of high cost capital to develop their upgrade? I seriously doubt it. I hasten to point out that Bill Gates became the rigchest man in America in the span of 15 yrs selling software and a whole slew of others did very well. I do not begrudge these dudes from making some dough... but I am saying that someone is making too much and every couple of years they pass out the hat to us and expect us to ante up again... usually for something we hardly need or have done well without for several years.

I think these software companies have created a huge mouth to feed.. or many of them and expect everyone to act like lemmings and rush out to keep up with the "latest" thing and spend more.

I am tired of all these monthly high tech comnunication and IT subsrciptions we are paying for..

cell phone, satellite, dsl, PDA, and and god knows what else. This post is not directed at the excellent tech staff but the guys in the big offices upstairs and the "MARKETING" genuises who are skilled at getting people to buy what they dont need.

[Matthew Giampapa]

Well I may not be an unbiased observer, but I think that you (defjef) are making a flawed comparison here.

Software does in fact become obsolete. VectorWorks 8 was not designed to run on Windows 2000, Windows XP, or MacOS X. Changes in the operating systems can and do effect software over time.

Unlike cars, software becomes obsolete because of the environment it is used in. For example, the AutoCAD r14 support in VW8 was great when AutoCAD 14 was a common part of the environment, but now that most users are on AutoCAD 2000 or 2002, it no longer functions as "well" as it did.

Unless you are willing to freeze the environment in which you are working, then yes, parts will break.

Nemetschek has a great policy, they give out free support longer than they are required to. NNA provides an upgrade path that is much less expensive than your original investment, and if you are unsatisfied for any reason within 90 days they allow you to return their product. Just try bringing a car back to the dealer after a 90 day test drive.

Now you knew full and well that when you bought the program you were purchasing it as it currently was, with an 18 month commitment by the company to help you resolve problems with the software. Any updates or additional features added by a point release are just icing on the cake.

Now in this regard I think NNA also deserves a round of applause. Free OS X support, a free viewing program for clients, and the 3D PowerPack has been a great deal for VW9 users.

IMHO 9.5.3 certainly is a huge improvement over 8.5.2 in every way. If you want to compare it to the 9.0 release, you should at least be fair and compare that to the original 8.0. There is nothing forcing you to purchase a program at the .0 release. Many people wait for initial problems to be worked out with later point releases before they buy. In fact, if you are utterly dependant on your CAD package I would encourage you to wait until the word on the street collectively nods that the upgrade is ready for your needs.

Yes, no one likes using a service for YALMF, (Yet another low monthly fee) but NNA is not forcing you to. When you purchased VectorWorks you saw exactly what you were entitled to and had 90 days to make an informed decision. Now if you want other improvements that have cost NNA $ to design and implement, why are you entitled to those without updating to a newer version?

Now why was I here? Oh yea to leak^H^H^H^H give jnr an idea when a bug fix would be out...

Jim, given that the NNA has not yet released either the Spotlight or Mechanical add-ons for VW10 yet, and that the website states...

quote:

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VectorWorks MECHANICAL 10 is currently under development and is scheduled for release late 2002

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and ...

quote:

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VectorWorks SPOTLIGHT 10 is currently under development and is scheduled for release early 2003.

---

My bet would be that a service release will be rolled out with both of these products. So assuming that everything runs at least a month late in NNA land, I would guess that a 10.0.1 release would come out with VW Mechanical 10 around ?January?", and possibly a 10.0.2 when VW Spotlight 10 comes out say ?March?.

That?s just a guess based on what NNA has publicly said, I don't have any other info to go on. For all I know they may have a fix sooner, or not release any fixes with the other industry series products. All I know for sure is that the recent trend has been to include all the VW programs on one CD. If your going to update the core program, that would be the most opportune time.

[jnr]

Matt:

Thanks for the heads up. I'll sit tight until January.

Defjef: You sound as pessimistic and frustrated as I am. I would suggest you at least upgrade to 9.5.2. After riding the horror of 9.0, they finally came out with a stable functional version. I've been using it for sometime without any problems. Upgrading to win2000 (if you are on a PC) solved a bunch of stability problems across the board. I am still leary of XP, but run it with 9.5.2 at home without incident.

[defjef]

OK Matt, Tech support is terrrific... I have no beef with them. I have NOT upgraded my "environment" because I will have to go through hell with all my apps and drivers and so on and so on. When the puter breaks I may have to face the situation where the old software does not work on the new hardware... and bite the bullet and upgrade. I dont consider an upgrade and upgrade unless there is some serious productivity augmentation. I also think that the old files should not be corrupted into new and unreadable versions by the old software.

What I think that the Software vendors should do for their customers... the ones who have already boght their product... is send them a FREE upgrade with an expiratrion date. This allows them to test the product and decide if it is worth the cost. I don't want to but it... install it.. and return it as I did with 9.0.

What I am feeling is that I am in for a continuing $500 every 18 months or so... and that is for a single license. I don't like that feeling.

There are seemingly many features in the program that I have no use for.. and also new features which are added which I also have no use for. I really dont have the time to play with a program and learn it and try to make my clients pay for my training. That IS a dilemma. So until I can justify the time/expense of "upgrading"... I will stick with "if it aint broke dont fix it" kinda thing.

thanks

[Richard]

While I welcome change and advance, CAN'T sacrifice production for change without rock solid output for my work that I'm billing for. THAT'S MY REALITY!! MARKETING & TECH needs to understand that reality. If there's a new product in the pipeline, I would suggest that they should utilize all liscensend users as beta testers at a no cost charge to uncover any defects in software, After all, we are "true believers", why not give us a chance to say "yea or nay" before you ask for money, though I understand the need for compensation

[Jershaun]

Hi there

In my humble opinion both Matthew and defjef have good points. I believe that when a person buys a CAD product it, their initial cost should be the most and their upgrade costs thereafter should be minimal.

When a person gets a new CAD package, they are getting a ?whole lot of commands? for the initial price but when they upgrade they are getting ?fewer additional commands? (in comparison) therefore the costs should be proportional. I agree with defjef when new users should pay the ?full price? and old users should pay a nominal fee. Just as an observation (use it or lose it) I paid R3300 for MiniCAD 7. R2500 for upgrading to VW8/RW8. I missed out on VW9 for obvious reasons but it would have costed me then R3500. I have now ordered and paid R5300 for VW10/RW10. Upgrades to 9 and 10 are more expensive than my original purchase of MC7. Makes one wonder.

On the other hand Matthew has a good point that technology is always changing and improving and I am all for it. In fact before VW10 came out I was seriously considering changing to TurboCAD. I would like to buy the high end programs however I am not that rich. VW still has to meet my modestly high standards therefore I hope that they are always coming out with new features, enhancements and constantly developing.

Shaun Singh

South Africa

[jnr]

I hate to say it, and it might be a little off the topic, but upgrades to this software are still less expensive than a lot of other CAD packages (Archicad for example is US$600). I believe you only get 90 days free tech support with them. One reason I seem to be sticking it out with this software is the excellent (free)tech support, this forum (on the other hand would one need the tech support if the program was stable??), and the fact that they are nearby (got lucky). I would be willing to pay more for it if:

1) it had viewports or some method of a dynamic link to sections (this is huge and a major detraction--go look at Microstation, Archicad,etc). It would also mean getting rid of those stupid masks and smaller files if you didn't have to cover up an entire plan just to say, show and enlarged toilet plan.

2) For the love of God, the juvenile worksheets were a) stabilized and b) either comenserate with Excel or somehow linked to Execl, Word etc.(go look at Adobe InDesign). (And no I don't want to hear about cut and paste from excel into the worksheets. That's not the issue).

3) It was simply more stable on a new release.

In sum one has to be aware that the cost of advances in software sophistication, if it allows one to be more productive (profitable) pale in comparision to the loss of revenue.

[ionw]

Here's my two cents.

1. 9.0 caused many problems with many users...but not all. we heard from the worst case scenarios, and yes there were some nasty situations. But like a set of architectural plans that a contractor or owner finds issues on they will continue to dig and pick until you feel like you've been through the wringer?users treated 9.0 release similarly. I used it from the 9.0 release, and I admit I am a technophile so when computers start doing wacky things I generally know where to go, but I was ecstatic over the new tools. Was I able to work faster? yes. were there crashes? Yes...did I save? yes! Did I have nightly backups? yes. I welcomed the .0 release, do I recommend it for others? a resounding No! this leads to point

2. I am testing VWA10 for our office. I haven't had more than two issues with this program, it is light years beyond where the 9.0 release was in terms of stability and maturation. Am I working faster...Yes! do I still save early and often? yes. Do I still do backups? yes. Have I needed them yet? No.

most of the situations I saw, were aggravated by not using backups properly...if at all.

As far as the doom and gloom of VW 10.o shaping up to be as bad as VW 9.0 B******T! If you were able to search the boards by time you'd see the difference.

10 is stable on my system, it is fast, it likes my network, the new features like self healing walls, and cleaner hidden line drawing take hours out of my week.

Nothing is perfect, in no way am I offering NNA a get out of jail free card, they have pissed me off too, but this thread is not getting anywhere.

in following with Matt's comment on a 90 day test drive...Try telling your Toyota dealer you only want to pay for the improvements since your last model. True you get trade in value, but the difference is easily on par with NNA's upgrade prices.

Hey Matt it is great to know you still peruse the old boards...Hi.

[Jim Smith]

jnr,

Your comment about viewports, from what friends who use viewports tell me, printing is a real pain in the ...viewport. I have used layer linking as a way to show (dynamically) the same detail at larger or smaller scales.

My hope is for better work group references. In VW8.5 work group references works, but be prepared for lots of GOK's (God Only Knows). I would be interested in knowing if work group references work any better in VW10.

[Matthew Giampapa]

Hiya Ion,

Ironically it was to try to solve my own VectorWorks problem. At least it turned out to be a driver issue on my own system and not a VW 10 bug...

I'll probably keep reading these just to stay up to date for training purposes. If I have something to add to a discussion I will.

Anyway, where else am I suppose to dig up info for VectorWorker?

[jnr]

Hey IONW:

Perhaps you'ld like to send me a check for about $10,000 (US) worth of lost billable time spend diagnosing software issues during 9.0 that should have been addressed before it was released. Call me a little gun shy but hell is going to freeze over before I leap off on to another .0 release of this application. I can't afford it. At least with 9.5.2 there are no suprises.

Jim: What I'm after is dynamic sectioning similar to microstation and archicad. Layer linking still requires masking, which often becomes cumbersome. Vectorworks section tool is static. Change the design, and you have to re-cut the section. This is time consuming and gets expensive when you are paying staff to do the work the machine should be able to perform.

I'm a former autocad 14 user and viewports seemed to work pretty well back then (I hate to admit it). Archicad has Plotmaker, which I understand can be a pain, but it appears to be getting better in release 8. It can print not only drawing files but Excel, word, dwg +dxf, and image files on the same sheet.

[skoorbb]

9 vs 10:

IF you upgrade, the price paid is the fair value; presumably, the purchase was made with that in mind. The upgrade should work reasonably well, and VW9 did NOT - bad NNA. It didn't work, still doesn't work, and VW10 appears to be the "fix".

Misc:

Friend of mine still sucessfully uses PowerCad on OS6.

Other CAD versions:

WE STILL NEED POWERFUL 2D DRAFTING TOOLS. VIEWPORTS WORK GREAT AND INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY.

[MikeN]

v9 is in the dark ages. The best feature of v10 is this little animated Paper Clip that pops up telling you what to do.

[Jim Smith]

jnr, I agree some kind of viewport would be an improvement. One thing I've done is to have a layer(s) just for the details that will be enlarged. I admit this can get complex if you have many views or details - but it works.

Does anyone know if workgroup reference has been improved in VW 10? Our experence is... "don't ever use the move page tool or you'll wreck the workgroup!"

[MikeB]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Smith:

Does anyone know if workgroup reference has been improved in VW 10? Our experence is... "don't ever use the move page tool or you'll wreck the workgroup!"

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The workgroup referencing problem was fixed in 9.0 Now you can freely move the page with no problems.

I haven't noticed anything different with WGR in 10, but I haven't been using if for production yet.

[ 10-31-2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: MikeB ]

[Guest]

The move page tool in VW 8 was screwy.

It would change the origin thus changing all the coordinates as well.

This problem was addressed in VW 9 and still works in VW 10.

There are some workgroup reference issues that were addressed in VW 9.5.1, more in 9.5.2.

[sicily80]

I am still juggling sides here, but am leading toward the side of the unhappy end consumer. Nemetschek tech support has been tremendous in keeping up with he updates for the every changing mac operating systems and I thank you truly for your fast responses and hard work. However, the bottom line is the Vectorworks 9.0-9.5.3 are still so unstable that I am reluctant to purchase anymore products or updates. Even after all the beta testings, I have installed a clean version of 9.5.3 on a brand new computer with the factory install of jaguar and find myself trying to remind myself to hit apple+S after every routine move (moving a line, deleting an object, scrolling down). Now I know that not everybody is having these problems, and that I may just be one of those few who are cursed, but I as I'm reading through all the postings I'm finding more and more customers that are unhappy. So what should I do?

[MikeN]

Ditch the Mac and pick up a PC with XP Pro. Noteable firms here in Vancouver are slowly realizing that VW on PC's are much more effective and efficient.

[ionw]

I think the point that most people make is a valid one. If you can't afford to lose time, don't us the latest hardware, the latest system, and the latest hardware. JNR I am sorry you lost $10k. There is no reason for it. But judging from your membership # you have been a user since before 8. If 9.0 wasn't working for you, why didn't you downgrade? I had an office I was in charge of do exactly that. We tried 9.0 because it looked great, it wasn't working after a couple of weeks, we stopped, went back to 8, where the office stayed until 9.5 came out. Life has been good. You might say well IONW I paid good money for the upgrade, but that is paltry in comparison to what you claim to have lost in billable time. (I am NOT questioning if you lost this or not) I am using VWA 10 and Jaguar and loving it. is my office? no. I am a geek from way back, I studied computer engineering, I ran a computer consulting business for 5 years before I found the god of Architecture. When stuff happens I generally know when to panic or not, and have many options. I may not understand why a line disappears, but I have options, and then I ask the tech people @ NNA.

[bdellis]

Matthew,

In your earliest post on this subject you said Vectorworks 8 wasn't designed to work on Windows XP or 2000. I'm using VW 8 on both XP and 2000; as I'm new to the program I haven't run into any probs because of this, if there are any. Can you give me a heads up about what problems there might be with using VW 8 on these operating systems? ( I am thinking that just because it wasn't designed for these OS's does not necessarily mean I will have problems.)

I'm not asking for a list of problems with VW 8 itself. I hope to find those out on my own.

I won't upgrade to 9 or 10 until I have problems or outgrow 8. It is good to know that I should wait to get the final version of 10 until next year....if then.

[Matthew Giampapa]

I think we the only common problem with VW 8 on 2000 or XP is that it does not play nice with other programs. While it is running, it likes to take up 100% of CPU resources, and that for it to run reliably the user must have local administrative privilages on the machine.

This isn't exactly serious but we did get a number of complaints. However the point I was trying to make was that had a serious problem come up that prevented it from working being functional, Nemetschek would not be obligated to fix it.