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alain

10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore

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BTW, what is so "major" about Mavericks? Apart from a few additional features it doesn't appear to be anything groundbreaking.

Can I ask, what was NVW's position when Snow Leopard was released in terms of prior version support? (that version of OSX was considered to be a major upgrade)

There were a large number of background changes in 10.9, otherwise the older versions of Vectorworks would have simply launched as they did before.

For OS X 10.6, Vectorworks 12.5 and older ceased to function properly due to similar changes made by Apple.

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I'm going to stir this pot a little regarding deprecated functions.

Functions do not just disappear overnight, they are marked as deprecated then, after a period of time, disappear. That is, Apple puts a big warning notice out every time the code is compiled which basically says, the function that you are using is on a limited life span and one day, we will remove it. We suggest that you update your code to use the alternative functions - which often Apple very nicely suggest appropriate alternatives.

Now, I've just quickly gone through the release notes to see what functions have been removed in 10.9 and paid attention at what point they were marked as deprecated.

Now, I don't know what functions Vectorworks uses but to give people an idea of time frames involved between functions being marked as deprecated and when they disappeared, I will use the ColorSync functions as an example - which possibly could be used by Vectorworks for things like colour management and thus be reason why VW2011 and earlier cease to function.

ColourSync was marked as deprecated in OSX 10.6, Snow Leopard, which checking release dates, was released in August 2009. Without even taking beta development cycle into consideration which would likely have made the OSX 10.6 development API available to developers probably around May 2006 time, it is clear that, notice of ColorSync's impending demise would have been known to NNA over a year (if not 18 months) before Vectorworks 2011's release. Plenty of time IMHO to use the recommended alternatives especially as most programmers will want to see a clean build and not ones full of warnings.

On a more positive note, I see that with 10.9, Apple Quicktime Framework and QTKit are now deprecated. Which means that the countdown to removing the Quicktime barrier to 64 bit has well and truly started? So 3-4 years away.

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If we only developed for OS X, it may have been relatively easy, yes. But since Vectorworks is so complex with so many interdependencies, we can not rebuild huge chunks of the application from scratch once a deprecation notice starts occurring, especially since Apple does this so frequently, effectively making it impossible to keep up.

On the Windows side for instance, Vectorworks has been compatible with Windows XP for the last 11-12 years and many versions of Vectorworks from 5-8 years ago will still run on Windows 7, because Microsoft does not deprecate so many functions so frequently.

Its simply a matter of making the software as compatible as possible given the time allotted, while at the same time still advancing the program itself. If we spent all of engineering's time on going back and updating old versions or worrying about keeping software compatible with versions of OSes that wont be released for 3-4 years, we wouldn't have time for anything else.

It is unfortunate that some users are running into compatibility problems, but again, these issues are avoidable as users can either choose to upgrade to the latest OSes and hardware along with upgrading Vectorworks, or they can choose not to and stay with hardware/software combinations that work together.

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I agree with Jim, this is the scenario with every piece of software out there...

I love the latest and greatest shinny new stuff as much as the next but... I'm still running Win 7 because it's the combo that just works with all my hardware and software.

An OS's main purpose is to be a "toolbox" to run your "tools" which you use to output work and make some money. I prefer having quicker evolution in my "tools" than the box their in, for productivity reasons.

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I agree with Jim, this is the scenario with every piece of software out there...

I'm not buying it.

Vectorworks 2012 is the buggiest software I have ever owned.

Sounds to me like a convenient way to cut ties with this version and salvage the salvageable.

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But since Vectorworks is so complex with so many interdependencies, we can not rebuild huge chunks of the application....

Sounds like a ground up rebuild is needed then, especially to strip out legacy code and tools.

Either that or you need to employ more engineers.

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Sounds like a ground up rebuild is needed then, especially to strip out legacy code and tools.

We do rebuild components as needed, regularly. That is why the current two versions are compatible on the most recent OSes.

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Vectorworks 2012 is the buggiest software I have ever owned.

Sounds to me like a convenient way to cut ties with this version and salvage the salvageable.

If you find VW 2012 buggy..that's probably a good reason to upgrade to 2014...

There is absolutely no reason to upgrade an OS if you don't upgrade your installed software...it's like trying to live in two separate decades or walking at 2 different speeds. (That's only possible if you smoke the good stuff!)

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(That's only possible if you smoke the good stuff!)

I wouldn't know so no comment :)

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It is unfortunate that some users are running into compatibility problems, but again, these issues are avoidable as users can either choose to upgrade to the latest OSes and hardware along with upgrading Vectorworks, or they can choose not to and stay with hardware/software combinations that work together.

Jim, it?s not a simple either or scenario. Working an old file in a new version rarely comes without problems and to often they are major problems. If file import was robust, your either or scenario would be acceptable.

Backward OS compatibility, robust file import / upgrade, BIM integration, better real world BIM tools, the prevalence of bugs, general stability, the pace of development, what doesn?t ultimately boil down to a question of resource allocation?

By saying legacy code with ?so many interdependencies? and Apple?s development pace are ?effectively making it impossible to keep up?; are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?

If this is a discussion about resource allocation problems, then discuss what it will take to fix those problems, so we can show support for what?s needed.

Sean Flaherty recently said in an interview , that Vectorworks has 450 000 users of which "more than half of licenses were delivered to subscribers last year". That?s >225 000 active subscribers. Interestingly, Nemetschek?s Q3 Financial Report says Nemetschek has >300 000 customers across all of its 11 brands, by my estimate that makes the Vectorworks user base about 2/3rds of Nemetschek's total active user base, but that?s a discussion for another place.

What you?re now arguing in response to the topic of this thread is an economic equation, isn?t it?

Software Problem = Engineering Hours

Engineering Hours = x Engineers

x Engineers = $ $$$ $$$

$ $$$ $$$ / 225 000 active subscribers = $ increase per license subscription

If its just a question of economics, pick a problem, any problem, put a price on it and see if there?s user support to fix it!

Edited by M5d

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You?re saying legacy code with ?so many interdependencies? and Apple?s development pace are ?effectively making it impossible to keep up?. Are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?

That it would be economically unviable to support more than the previous two versions, most likely. I cant speak to the specific numbers (though I have never figured out how the Nemetschek user base numbers work, that headcount doesn't make sense to me either...) but I do know that charging users that keep up to date extra to support software for users that do not upgrade regularly would be unfair.

The idea of users paying to keep their older versions patched definitely has merit, but not something there is any sort of support system for here currently.

Jim, it?s not a simple either or scenario. Working an old file in a new version rarely comes without problems and to often they are major problems. If file import was robust, your either or scenario would be acceptable.

^ Completely agree with this. The conversion issues in files/workspaces/preferences are the main factors holding a regular and consistent upgrade path back.

Edited by JimW

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Are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?

If you follow some of the arguments in this thread to their ultimate conclusion, you would be forgiven for asking yourself this question.

Edited by Kizza

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i have VW 2008 and 2009 full versions and 2012 student and i hate 2012 it uses a lot of vram so it's very slow on big 2d drafting and 3d models the faster is 2008 version it's very stupid that upgrades are just for doing software worse.

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i have VW 2008 and 2009 full versions and 2012 student and i hate 2012 it uses a lot of vram so it's very slow on big 2d drafting and 3d models the faster is 2008 version it's very stupid that upgrades are just for doing software worse.

The later versions have greater hardware requirements, yes. A Machine that ran 2008 without issue may no longer be able to keep up with software created 6 years later.

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I have VW 2008, and it is perfect for what I use it for. Plus I have a LOT of time invested in formulas and tools and so on. To find out that it does not work with Mavericks, After I have updated to it has me really upset and annoyed. I get tons of email from VW about all kinds of things, would it not have been smarter to email the licensed clients and tell them NOT to update instead of what has happened, and cause such grief. I have no need for anything more sophisticated than 2008, I am familiar with it and I am used to it.

To solve my problem, "being in the middle of a large and complex drawing when I upgraded" I searched through my office to find old computers that could run it, no luck. So today I went off and bought a new MAC mini with the old system on it and am dedicating it to VW work. It was a far cheaper, however avoidable, alternative than to spend 3k on something that I already own, to do something that i already do......I will be getting new software and it will not be VW, as I can not trust that they will not screw me again.

This could have been handled much better.

Colin Walsh

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I'm sorry you encountered this, but we made sure to post the compatibility immediately both on the forums as well as on the knowledgebase as soon as OS X 10.9 was launched:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/1163/Vectorworks+Operating+System+Compatibility+List+2013-10-22

Such items do not go out in those types of communications as we do not have lists of users on particular operating systems, that is not something tracked for use in marketing emails.

In the future, make sure to contact us or check the compatibility article before performing something as major as an operating system upgrade, we can confirm whether your combination of Vectorworks software and OS will work or not, before any problems are caused.

After upgrading, unfortunately the only two options are downgrading the OS (which entails wiping the machine completely and reinstalling, then restoring from a backup) or upgrading to a supported version of Vectorworks.

Edited by JimW

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I'm in the exact same boat and am very disappointed that neither Apple nor Nemetchek thought to advise of this. I will now go through the time-intensive, and slightly risky process of downgrading my OSX back to ML. I go forward with a new, reduced level of confidence for the future.

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