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sak1850

Window sill insertion problem

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Having a problem getting the window sill to line up properly with what I want to show.

You can see from the attached that the screen shot of the settings and the actual window as inserted are completely different.

I have tried all of the permutations of settings (centre wall line edge wall line etc.) and this is the only one which gives me an approximation of what I actually require. (have spent days on this!!)

I want to be able to create a window and a sill in the dialogue boxes prior to insertion and then when it is inserted it should look like the previews, this is not happening.

I had the same problem with 2013 and hoped that it would be fixed in 2014 so I have not been using the 3D at all unless I create windows and doors (in the form I need) and insert them into standard 3d geometry which means I do not get the benefit of the wall commands.

I know that there are some really clever VW users out there and I am hoping that you will tell me that it is just a tick in a box somewhere in a menu three deep.

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Hi Steve and Christiaan,

Here's mine...it appears in my iteration that everything is OK. This is on a Mac, dunno if that's the issue or not but I'll alert our friendly folks in tech support and see if they have a solution.

Wes

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When I open your file, I do not see the same settings as are in your screenshot for the sill.

However If I alter the settings on my end to match the ones in the screenshot of your dialogue box, I get these results:

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Hi Wes

It looks like you are getting the same problem as me, take a look at the preview and the sill location in relation to the window, then look at what appears on drawing, they are different and that is my main problem, Unless I fudge the settings I can not get a proper representation on plan of the settings that I enter.

Thanks for looking at it.

Hi JimW

You are also getting the problem where the plan representation does not comply with the details in the settings box, see how the sash is in relation to the sill in the settings and then how it translates onto the plan, not the same for sure!

Thank you for looking perhaps this is a bug submit, but it really is a major one for Architects working in 3D.

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On a side note, I've had problems with previews in dialog boxes, mine simply don't show the wireframe preview at all.....I believe I had this in v2013 as well, sporadically.

In v2013 it also occurred sometimes in the Stair tool dialog box preview.

Edited by Vincent C

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Oops, sorry Steve, I overlooked that - I thought you were objecting to your original image where in plan view, the window seems to be sticking out well beyond the brick face...I'll go back and have a carefuller (more careful ;-)) look at it - I have an "in" with the "window guy."

Wes

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It is definitely one to be submitted, however it seems like there may be two issues, one with the preview and one with the settings themselves, I cant tell if they are caused by the same problem or not.

Ill post any results I find.

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Thanks Jim and Wes

I was really hoping it was just a tick box problem.

Have been visiting the forum for many years and it was starting to get a bit depressing, talk of moving to Revit and the like.

I really want Vectorworks to work and develop and hope that we can all work together to that end.

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After speaking with one of the lead engineers for Window objects, it breaks down into a few different chunks:

To start, the Window preview panes currently do NOT take the fact that windows are inserted into a wall into account. So the preview you see is -normally-) how the window will indeed look like it does in plan, if it is NOT inserted into a wall. This explains some of the discrepancy when looking at the preview. (I would argue that a window is 99.999% of the time inserted into a wall, but we will get to that in a bit.)

Next, the previews default to two assumptions. The first is that the top preview pane will show the "front" or exterior of the window. The second is that the bottom preview pane will display as if "up" is the exterior of the window. This explains why when you have a window in plan where the "bottom" of the window is the exterior, it is shown flipped in the preview, which further explains a few more of the discrepancies.

Also, the Sill displayed in the preview, since it does not acknowledge the wall insertion, will nearly always display inappropriately because the sill when its window is inserted into a wall will be locked to the wall.

These are technically not bugs however, as this is how the features are currently engineered to work. Mainly because of the level of complexity required to add the wall to the preview, which would need to take into consideration wall styles, components, wall direction, wall end caps, features-in-walls etc.

By saying all of the (verbose!) above, I by no means suggest that this is how it should ALWAYS work, just that these would be broken into feature requests instead. Mainly:

1) Add the ability to accommodate wall insertion in the window's preview panes.

2) Allow sills to operate/align independently of walls, mainly in regards to the preview.

However, I am not even slightly an architect. This is simply how I have come to see the current situation regarding this initial post. If anyone has anything to add or needs to slap me upside the head, please do so now and we will get these added to the appropriate lists.

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Hi Jim

Thanks for your work on this, I have looked again at the problem and I really think it is very simple. The sill always defaults so that its back edge is in line with the insert position into the wall (Left edge, centre line, and right edge) and takes no account whatsoever of the offset in wall command.

This means that there are only three possible options for the back edge of the sill with no option to over ride.

In architecture these locations for the setting out of the sill are almost never used, the most common sill position is lining through with the back edge of the sash, with the internal window board (stool as you call it)coming off that.

So point 2 of your recommendation to allow sill to operate independently of walls is correct to a degree.

It would be far better to allow a setting for the offset of the sill in relation to the back edge of the sash to be designated and the sash offset in wall would then relate to both items and make the insertion controllable in any wall configuration.

If this is too difficult then to set as a default the back edge of the sill to line through with the back edge of the sash would certainly help.

I enclose a sketch of a typical sill construction.

Thanks again Jim it is good to get such quick feedback.

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Steve, this is an excellent topic to bring up. Getting a proper looking window for 3D purposes and for CD detailing has always been next to impossible. Even though VW ships with the Marvin window line, for example, no Marvin window has a sill configured like what we have to work with. Cutting a section through a window is of no use in a developed wall section and I alway choose to turn off the window object in such a section in order to insert manufacturer's details I've downloaded. I agree with your points about how a sill should align relative to the frame.

Things get even more weird when one opts for showing trim under stool and/or sill (the trim clips up through the sill at either side), or when the splayed wall feature is used and you can't control the length of the sill on the splayed side independently of the length on the other side, so one side has overly long sill extensions.

If one chooses to show interior and/or exterior trim one would expect to see the edges of the trim offset a fraction of an inch from the face of window frame but this can't be controlled and so again a useful plan detail can't be derived from a jamb location in the model.

Options for brick and masonry sills also are problematic but I don't wish to go on and on. Wes, hopefully your "in" with the window guy at Nemetschek will lead to something helpful. ;-)

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Still discussing this at length with the industry specialists/architects here. This will likely be broken up into multiple wishlist items, however I will keep you posted.

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Thanks Jim look forward to seeing what you all come up with, it will be great to be able to use 3d and cut realistic sections.

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Hi Jim

I had hoped that the sill problems would have been sorted out on this release, THEY HAVE NOT!!!!

As you can see from my screen shot, the back edge of the sill is still defaulting to the wrong position, it should line up with the back edge of the window.

This makes window (with sill) insertion a real problem we have to ignore the sill and add it as a separate element which makes the whole process of 3d modelling more time consuming and if a window is rescaled or moved you can imagine the extra steps required.

Please, Please, get this sorted.

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It would be nice if:

1.) The depth (projection) of exterior sills were set with respect to the outside face of the wall. Currently, unless all the exterior walls of a project are the same thickness, the sill depth has to be individually set for walls of different thicknesses, even if "Use Wall Depth" is selected.

2.) The extension (overall width) of the exterior sill and interior stool could be controlled separately (I think this is mentioned above).

3.) When offsetting a sash, the transition between the exterior jamb and the interior jamb remained centered on the sash (or sashes in the case of a double hung window). (This is only noticeable when interior and exterior jamb Classes use different colors or textures).

4.) The window frame didn't continue across the top of the sill, introducing an unexpected bump in the sill profile.

5.) When the "Size Reference" is set to "Sash Opening," the "Elevation in Wall" also applied to the top of the sash, rather than to the top of the Unit (the top of the window's frame as set by its "Jamb Width").

6.) Profiles could be used for exterior trim and interior casings (even nicer if these profiles could be 2D symbols, but this use of 2D symbols is probably another subject, along with the long-standing wish to be able to use 2D symbols for EAPs...).

7.) Head trim and casing could be returned to the wall (to create "capped trim," maybe in lieu of or in addition to the Lintel option).

8.) 3D symbols could be used for the exterior and interior corners of the window trim (for example, to create rosettes).

Some of these could apply to doors, as well.

It looks like WindDoor may no longer be available? I was wondering it if might offer more capabilities, though it's really hard to spend money on a Plug-In for an Architectural software to create... basic doors and windows... Hopefully now that Vectorworks has gone 64-bit, resources have been liberated so that Nemetschek can focus on PIOs? It seems extremely capable PIOs are at the core of any potentially effective BIM software... VWIS025

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^ Speaking with the door/window engineers about these now.

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It would be nice if:

1.) - 8.)

+1

That would be very nice.

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Extending the conversation on #4 above...

Not only does the bottom of the frame create a bump in the sill but the lower trim does not shift down when a timber sill is selected and creates a similar bump in the sill along the plane of the casings. When trim below the sill is checked on it should be BELOW the sill and not sharing the same space.

Nor does the side trim extend down to the top of the Sill Lip. It stays the same length as if a picture frame trim was intended.

When a sloped timber sill is used the side casings must extend down the height of the Sill to meet it and avoid leaving a gap.

9.) The exterior trim on clad units butt up against the projected jambs and do not partially cap the jambs as this tool as always shown. Its a minor technicality but the final width of the unit from the outside edge of casing is always slightly narrower then what will be built. Increasing the width of the casing is not an acceptable work around.

10) The width of the Head Trim should be independent setting from Side Trim. It would be nice if this was true for the Lower Trim as well.

Edited by Joe-SA

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Some of this is on my wish list that I posted a couple of weeks ago. Definitely would like to see windows and doors improved.

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Hi Jim

Have you had any feedback yet on when this problem may be fixed?

No, and it does not look like I will anytime soon, these tools hook into a LOT of other aspects of the application and can't be quickly changed.

If I do get any new information that I can share, I will.

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This conversation was originally discussing Windows in VW2013 and was then picked up again looking at VW2014.   I am now evaluating Windows in VW2018 and seeing the exact same performance.   

 

Very glad to be a grandfathered in user of Julian Carr's WinDoor Manager.    I first bought it the day after evaluating VW's very first stock Window and Door plug-ins back in the late 90's.   I've evaluated the two side by side with every upgrade ever since and have never switched back to VW.   Both tools have their pros and cons and in recent versions its been a close call.  Catalogs are an extremely compelling advancement.   However, with the VW Window and Door PIO's we simply CANNOT create a trim package on our exterior elevations that is acceptable for many of the reasons listed above.   And I'm not talking the fancy ones listed in 5-8.   1-4 plus 9-10 are pretty basic control of the geometry.  

 

WinDoor has been giving us an acceptable level of control for as long as I can remember.   Being told by VW that the software engineering has been too difficult over the past 5 versions is not an acceptable answer.

 

 

 

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