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Davide

VW 10

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Interesting reading the response to VW 10.

As a long time user of MC/VW's "version 10" should have been bigger. Supporting nearly 20 users in house alone it's extremely hard to justify upgrading from 9.5 to 10 due to the short list of new features along with the big price. We should not have to pay for an upgrade for stability, that should be a given. It sure would have been easier if the upgrade price was different for 9.x.x users then for 8.x.x users. Pricing should have been scaled. This release is meant to attract all the v8 users who did not upgrade to v9. Now it won't be until v11 before the v9 users upgrade again. As a v9 user it sure was nice getting the 3d powerpak, but I'm affraid it's now hurt getting v9 users to jump to v10.

Fuge

[ 09-24-2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Fuge ]

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Paul:

Sorry for the poor use of terminology. Here's the problem. One is forced to use Excel or Word because the built in worksheets and text editor are not robust enough. Its like using the first or second version of Excel. If the program had better cell editing, database importation or text editing, there would be no need for OLE. We could do everything within the program. Unfortunately this is currently not the case. As an architect, I want to be able to cull specifications from an office database and import it into a project, then be able to edit the imported info as needed. I can't do this in the current state of 9.5. I have not made use of Vectorworks records for a data base because I cannot trust the schedule capability of the worksheets. You never know what you are going to get when you spit the schedule and I am not about to waste fee trying to make a pig fly.

As for the OLE issue, it is frustrating that the program continues to be "dumbed down" in order to meet cross platform transparency (text editor for example). There has got to be a better way.

Regarding dynamic sections, this should be a very very high priority for the company. I see its application as essential for any of the disciplines using the software. If there is no interest to include it in the base package, then at least include it in architecture, landscape arch and engineering.

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quote:

Does VWKS 10 take advantage of Motorola's velocity engine/ alti-vec technology ?

Does VWKS 10 take advantage of Apple's dual processor technology ?

If not to the last questions then why not?

Altivec speeds up multiple identical 32-bit floating point mathematical operations. VectorWorks uses 64-bit precision, and rarely does large numbers of identical operations on a big array of data, unlike a program like Photoshop. If we were doing Gaussian blurring of 1024x1024 bitmaps, we'd be looking at Altivec/MMX/SSE optimizations. We aren't. (Apple's implementation of OpenGL might, or ATI/nVidia drivers might, in which case we would get that speed-up also.)

Multiple processor support requires complete re-writes of algorithms, not "throwing a switch." And in the process it makes testing harder (as a particular bug may be a synchronization issue between the threads), and increases the expense for us as anyone working on or testing such algorithms needs to have a dual processor machine. And in the end, typically you get perhaps a 60% speedup typically, nowhere near a doubling.

What might be more practical is background rendering; having a way to have ops like "Convert Copy to Lines...->Hidden Line" work in the background, rather than the foreground. Then you could continue working on your document while the rendering occurs. Writing that to work with multiple processors -- one would render, the other respond to your input -- or multiple threads would probably require substantially less re-writing. Do you think that would be of use? (No promises, of course, I'm just a grunt here.)

Also, for what operations is performance a big issue? A lot of the time, it is easier and more cost-effective -- since it helps people with single processor machines too -- to rewrite code with a more efficient algorithm rather than to write for multiple processors.

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Multiprocessing, etc.

I can't think of many things where it would be especially useful. Printing and working at the same time would be one. Image rendering would be another. Since lightworks is now multiprocessor aware I hear, maybe renderworks will benefit.

I remember when MC was slow, when a 25mhz. processor was impressive. I used to want to have fairly current hardware because it really made a difference in usability and productivity.

I think for most purposes here, the improvements I can get in terms of productivity with hardware upgrades (the other side to the performance question here) are no longer dramatic. Neat, but not overwhelming.

To speed up the computer I think it makes more sense to get a faster processor. If NNA's resources are limited and must be deployed wisely, I think they should let intel, ibm and motorola handle the basic speed issues. On the other hand there are some things that can be done that would boost efficiency and productivity while using the program that only NNA can do. On this question, their priorities as stated in this thread make sense to me.

Donald

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Richie,

quote:

Originally posted by RichieHatch:

Can you rotate a 2D view so that it is parallel to an object?

You have been able to do that for a long time using the working plane tool - if I understand your question. The 2D view can be set to any orientation in 3D space.

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Andrew:

I agree with your position on dual processors. I have a G3/233mhz. I was always frustrated with the wait time for anything to happen. I then got a G4/466mhz. That solved my problem for everyday use. A faster computer would be nice but would not make a great difference over the 466mhz one I use now, except for rendering.

My speed frustrations now center on just what you mentioned, rendering, etc. Allowing me to choose a rendering function and still be able to use my machine would be huge. As it is now I keep both computers running. I use the G3 to print spooled print files while I work on the G4. If I did not have the G3 as a backup, my frustration would be greater. Allowing the second processor in a dual processor machine to run in the background would be the equivalent of having a second computer on your desk.

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Sorry, two question to the technical staff.

i don't see any mention to Layer or Class Palette, so there is not there, or? (a layer palette as in Illustrator),

second, is the 3D solids kernel a ACIS kernel?, or ACIS conform?. if so, there is a possibility of .SAT export?. if not, which solids underlaying is there?

in the office we think we will update, but i miss those features

Thanks. Esteban Pancham

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Sorry I may have been misunterstood. In Microstation (and Acad I think) there was a function that allowed one to rotate your worksheet to a numerical degree or to an items angle. This ment that if a wing of a building for example, was at 5 degrees off horizontal, that when the function was applied the 5 degree wing would now be rotated on screen (but not actually rotated) to be horizontal with your viewport. In Microstation I drew with lines and it was useful but if it appeared in Vectorworks where one uses shapes more often it would be extremely useful. Maybe this is for another thread (as it was before) but i feel that it is a part of Vectorworks, (along with multiple vieports), that complicates new users and so could be useful as an update.

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Guest

You can export and now import as IGES in VW. That's the 3d solids import/export feature. We do not have support for .sat files yet.

We do not have a layers or class palette.

The drop down box in the data display bar for layers and classes can be accessed by the control up and down arrows for layers, control + left and right arrows for classes. This is also a preference setting in VW Prefereces which can be changed to any one of 4 different keyboard combinations.

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Thanks katie?

?yet. that sounds good.

and regarding the Layer palette, i meant the real thing. one in which i can put 3 layer, 5 classes off, 4 on and is not modal, so i can see on the fly was happens as i do it. just as in photoshop.

but thanks for the answer. maybe a wish-lister?.

(pd. the question about the solids kernel is not answer, and i am just curious

best regards, esteban panchame

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quote:

Originally posted by InstantGlueck:

second, is the 3D solids kernel a ACIS kernel?, or ACIS conform?. if so, there is a possibility of .SAT export?. if not, which solids underlaying is there?

We do not use the ACIS kernel, nor SAT files. We do have IGES export, which will allow you to export the component surfaces in a format that many other packages can read.

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I don't know about anyone else, but I feel extremely angry that Nemetschek has released version 10 (which seems to have nice new features, but is especially a massive bug fix from version9) while doing absolutly NOTHING for users who got suckered into buying vw9. I paid full upgrade price for vw9, and for my money I got a seemingly endless string of failures, patches, and excuses. This of course culminating in Nemetschek abandoning vw9, (as not too few posters here seem to have done in favor of the stable VW8.5.2) and moving on to vw 10.

This would be fine if NNA gave VW10 as a free upgrade to the hundreds of involuntary beta testers of VW9, but instead they want me to pay for a new version, when, in my opinion, they have not really given me a good version of the last one I paid for. [Mad]

Releasing beta grade software as final was one bad desision by NNA, but it is beyond me why they see fit to follow that up with the almost equally bad decision to functionally tell me, "We got your money before, gave you junk - our bad but tough luck for you, instead of us trying to make good, just give us more money." That software was not only good money for a terrible product - but it COST me money in lost drafting time, technical support time and money, and associated costs. I'm not suggesting NNA owes me all the money they have cost me. But maybe they could give me the stable, functional, quality software I paid for and had good reason to expect.

What do all of you beleaguered VW9 users think? Should NNA cut us a break (or at least a fair deal)?

I've used this CAD software since MiniCAD+4. This whole thing just makes me want to jump ship. Perhaps ArchiCAD will treat us with a little less contempt and greed.

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<<What do all of you beleaguered VW9 users think?>>

I think the vast majority do not feel beleaguered. I think 9 is a good product. I agree the first version caused some pain and agony. But if someone has been with VW/MC since version 4, they would remember that the first version of every release had an assortment of problems. (Tell me please what software product, of all the products in the world, does not). I think a person who cannot affort to deal with those should simply not upgrade until 1 or 2 maintenance releases have been issued. If you upgrade on .2 or .3 typically, you get 18 months of solid software for your money. I think, finally, the upgrade cost is reasonable. What is it anyhow, $250? What is an archicad upgrade? $500? Seems like it is in the interest of those of us who use this software, the most economical of all alternatives, that NNA have sufficient resources to develop it. Some it seems want more that what is offered for less than what that takes. Without looking at the books, I don't see how one can conclude that greed is rampant.

Donald

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To be honest, while 9.5 wasn't ready at all,

9.5.2 is working very well. I know

the few bugs (Windows version seems

to be working much better then Mac's, from what I read), and work around them.

There are 30 people here using it every day and it flows, no major issues.

Except printing patterns and old hatches and demo windows.

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As a long-time user of Minicad/VW, I don't feel abused at all by the VW10 release. Admittedly, I had some issues with VW9 when first released. Most of these issues were related to printing so I had to print from VW8 for the first couple of weeks. Then these issues were remedied with the first patch. The productivity improvements (I can't even imagine working with out the boomerang mode anymore) in VW9 as well as the precision improvements and more robust curve handling were worth the price of the upgrade. Then NNA released the 3d power pack for free.

Frankly, I was overjoyed to see that NNA spent this past development cycle polishing an already strong toolset. My biggest wishlist item has been, and will continue to be, more robust snapping in 3d (similar to either FormZ or AutoCAD). But, I still crank out a lot of drawings without this feature so I can wait.

I will be upgrading my personal copy, as well as the licenses for our office, and I look forward to using version 10.

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The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Oh how quickly we forget that 3d Power Pack was offered for FREE. Did we already forget how the staff at NNA scrambled to solve, fix, and issue patches when Apple changed its OS?. Have not all of us benefited from the expert advice and help of the Tech Support Staff? How many of other software companies have such a robust message board where we can turn to for help from our piers and Tech Support? I know that the last time I looked, I found the price of Archicad to be quite expensive. And for those of us who are Apple users, how many of us have seen our favorite software programs abandoned in favor of Windows? I don't see too many people using AutoCad on a machine running Apple OSX.

For me I say "Thank you NNA".

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Do I feel upset at the prospect of upgrading to VW10? Not really. Gotta get back to work, now.

All the best,

Philip S. Wheelock, Jr. AIA

Wheelock Associates Architects

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I am grateful for the support and up to the minute resolution of conflicts that NNA provides, try that kind of support from Autodesk! Cost of upgrade, that's nickles chasing dollars, if you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch, old southern wise tale. Appreciate all and will upgrade without complaint and encourage NNA to keep on development of the next great thing!

Richard

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My sentiment is echoed by many in the previous postings. Most of all, I do feel that we paid a price greater than dollars and sense by upgrading to 9.0 and becoming unwittingly beta testers. In the end, VWA is a great program for the price and NNA came through with fixes. However, my hide is still chaffing from the experience. Although the 3D PowerPack was given to us for free, it is not what most of us appear to use 80% of the time. I much rather have had that as a pay-for add-on and gotten better support and fixes for 9.5.2 going into 9.5.3 for the OS X users (I'm sure for OS 9 as well.)

Two ways that would appease me and maintain the faith is to get a free 9.5.3 update working as well as 8.5.2, or close to it in terms of stability. OR if 10.0 takes care of what ills 9.5.2 for OS X users, then to be given a reasonable upgrade cost of say $125 each for say 3 or more licenses bought at one time vs. the reported $250. In any case, whether you need 1 or 10 licenses, $250 for the marginal improvements and added niceties is a bit steep.

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hello forum,

i can't understand the discussion about mac os x! why should nna take a lot of time to fix bugs from the operatingsystem os x? [Eek!]

i work with mac os 9.2.2 and i have really fun to work with VectorWorks. [Eek!]

i will update to mac os x if they could give me a operatingsystem that is stably and reliably. at the moment from my view this is not available. sorry, for all mac os x freaks.... [smile]

regards, marc

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This is getting to be quite a heated discussion. I always upgrade to the lastest software because I am just that kind of guy. I usually wait till a .1 version at least. I think NNA is a great company and have supported them and Deihl Graftsoft since Minicad 3. I am not going to jump ship to any other program athough I my ass is chapped about stability problems with VWKS 9. I think MacOSX is a great advanced Mac OS seems stable now 10.0.5 but I just wish I could be sure that VWKS 10 will be stable and profitable after being let down in the begining from VWKS 9. It still has some major problems I feel, with imported images, switching OS's and fill patterns. I did the upgrade calculater and got a price of $450 dollars for VWKS Architect & Renderworks, that seems kind of high. Especially for a beta tester which I feel I was for VWKS 9. I would jump on it if it was $250 dollars. i guess if altivec does not work technically with the calculation routines vectorworks uses, too bad. I guess it was just more hype, but having it do rendering or the dual processor do rendering faster would be great. Or the Open gl calcs because I use the walk through tool alot to visualize my designs. It seems VWKS bogs down severly with imported image files like photos, scans, etc. Would Altivec or DP's help that? I guess NNA has got to make money and they probably make more with windows products but does loyality count for anything? Mac user sinc MInicad 3? I still have not heard from tech support on a number of emails i sent. I guess I got to wake you guys up first thing 8 am est

kurt

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First, i just order my update and i hope the office would do the same soon.

But i have complains?

Well, the problem is that VW has not make a improvement as just we have expected.

As MiniCad 4 was out, it was incredible, a very flexible and fast program. but now, ten years later i find that the Others have made a huge improvement , there are flexible, fast and reliable and VW has to do really something to be a leader again.

And i speak not only for a Layer palette, or DP support, Altivec, or (i wish it would be there) open-GL instant render.

I took a look to a new program here in europe, from italy. and that is flexibility?, you can for example draw a wall and play with it, below wider, on the top narrow, they support capes, and which one can has a different height, you can place a window which whatever form. and you can incline it or bow? and it remain a wall, editable , and you can request for it volume and so on. (from each cape if you want). just for example.

Now, in VW 10 i can make X joints, and with multicapes i want to see the result

I hope, VW 11 will solve this issue.

Best regards. Stbn

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Kurt,

We don't start our days until 9am est.

If you sent an email and didn't get a response, you should email tech@nemetschek.net and ask them to track the email and see who it went to. We can then hound the person it was supposed to go to.

You should get a response within 2 business days. Some days we are incredibly busy back here and it might take longer to get a response back.

Can you ellaborate more on the problems you mentioned in your post about the images, fills, etc. ?

I'll see if I can shed some light on those topics.

[ 09-30-2002, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Katie ]

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Dear Katie;

i do not want to get anybody in trouble but

i will email you some issues at NNA tech attn: you, since they do not really relate to this topic of VWKS 10.

thanks for your response,

Kurt

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Kurt,

No problem. I will try to address them, and if need be, I'll pass them on the Tech Support manager.

new post - 9:30am

I just got your email. I'll look into these things and get some answers back to you as soon as possible.

[ 10-01-2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Katie ]

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