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Setting up Design Layers on remodelling projects.


bugman

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Hi all, New to Vectorworks and getting to grips with its many quirks. My immediate beginners questions are:

1. In working on a remodelling project do I need to create two files? The first for the existing property as is and the second for the project as it is proposed. I cannot see how with the layers/storeys set up of Vectorworks it could be anything other than two separate files. If it is indeed one can someone explain how that works.

2. In setting up the storeys layers say for the existing property, am I right in saying that if the ground floor of the property is say 150mm above ground level I would need a layer below the ground floor with a wall height of 150mm?

3. My last question relates to creating the roof layer. If parts of the building need to be entirely in one layer or another, how does the eaves of a building fall in the roof layer when the eaves line is below the ceiling height of the floor below?

These are probably easy questions to answer by real users but I have wasted hours if not days looking for the answers to these two questions on the internet and users guide. My apologies if these issues have been covered before.

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1. In working on a remodelling project do I need to create two files? The first for the existing property as is and the second for the project as it is proposed. I cannot see how with the layers/storeys set up of Vectorworks it could be anything other than two separate files. If it is indeed one can someone explain how that works.

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no, but you can use classes for the existing, demo and proposed. You do not always have to use a separate layer to create your existing and proposed buildings. Using classes is a great way to control the graphic style of your proposed and demolished walls, plus you can use the wall style to automatically apply the class to the walls

2. In setting up the storeys layers say for the existing property, am I right in saying that if the ground floor of the property is say 150mm above ground level I would need a layer below the ground floor with a wall height of 150mm?

I think you're forgetting about the foundations. Typically, foundations go below the ground to sit on solid bearing.

3. My last question relates to creating the roof layer. If parts of the building need to be entirely in one layer or another, how does the eaves of a building fall in the roof layer when the eaves line is below the ceiling height of the floor below?

I'm not sure you're understanding the concept of layers correctly. Layers do not have a concrete top and bottom. Layers are a conceptual container where you put information. So for example, although the roof layer contains the roof it does not control the eaves or the ridge. The eaves and the ridge are controlled by the settings on the roof dialog box.

I have written a manual on refurbishment projects which you can find here:

http://learn.archoncad.com/2010/09/3816/sst_1009-refurbishment-projects/

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Our firm only deals with existing home renovations, and the following is how we set up our files:

1) We separate existing design layers from proposed design layers. Therefore, we have an "existing" first floor layer, a "demo" first floor layer, and a "proposed" first floor layer. They are all set at the same "Z" and have the same heights, so the objects would occupy the same 3d space if overlaid.

2)Due to the fact that we typically show a mix of existing and new walls together (and illustrate them differently), we also have different classes for existing, demo, and new work. Because we try to keep our class structure as small and simple as possible, we usually only use three existing classes: "Existing-Wall, Existing-Door/Window, and Existing-Misc." If we want to create more existing classes, we just add "Existing-" to the class name.This way, it will show up with all the other "Existing" classes.

3) Until VW can actually handle different "states" of a given object (like I understand Revit can now do), this seems to be the easiest way for us to use (but not over-use) classes.

good luck!

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Thanks for the reply Jonathon,

On my first point of an existing and proposed project, what you are saying is that they all appear in one file and I either have them set to view or off depending which one I am working on.

I'm not forgetting the foundations. I was talking about the existing plans. On most projects in the UK the planners require existing plans and elevations of a house that is being extended. On simple extensions there is no need to go to the trouble of exploratory work of digging trial holes to ascertain the size of existing foundations or the height of the existing wall below ground etc, so I have no need to show them on any drawing. Given that scenario, am I correct in saying I would need a layer with a wall height set at 150mm or is there another way?

Naturally the proposed plans which would show the new extension to the house will have foundations and I can design those.

You are probably correct about me not understanding the concept, I read the PDF guide which says "the highest layers in a story cannot overlap with the lowest layers in another storey...." It was for this reason that I had the question about the eaves of the roof storey being lower than the storey below it.

I have looked at a lot of the stuff you have on the internet and I like your approach which is more easily digestible than the PDF guide that comes with the programme. I will have a look at your recommended link.

Many Thanks

NigeL

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I endorse the workflow described by atari2600.

As for layers and object heights, think of layers as boxes that are all the same at their boundaries, which is to say, essentially infinite. They all inhabit the same space. It is the things you put inside them that have elevation, not the layers themselves. The layer is simply a holder of things.

The layer doesn't set the height of the object*, the object itself contains the height information.

In this way, "layers" is actually misnamed and might have been better called "shells" since this term doesn't denote a spacial change like layers (of a cake) typically does.

Tom

*Note there are settings within the Organization Palette that can automatically confer height to objects such as walls, for instance but while the OP seems to suggest that a Layer can be given a fixed elevation in space, it isn't true. Jon Pickup makes the same point, I think, in noting that roofs have controls for height found in the Roof Dialog box, but not via any setting specific to layers.

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Thanks Tom,

Very easy to get confused over this as Jonathan said and I take your point about the misnaming of layers.

As a beginner it is most frustrating, but I am sure you have all been through this. I have bought a software package called Vectorworks "Architect", am planning to use it to architectural work. I am not designing the London Gherkin but simple residential house extensions. Yet the 2000 odd pages in the PDF guide offer no real guidance at all in how to set up the basics for run of the mill architectural projects. Yes the so called guide is crammed full of tables and summaries, but a guide it certainly is not.

It was Albert Einstein that once said; "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

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Thanks Buzz and Benson.

Jonathan, I came on this forum to get practical tips and advice from other users of VW who use it in real life situations. You may wish to speak to me as though I am some sort of fool that doesn't realise foundations go underneath walls, but you can be rest assured that if I wanted to buy your book or subscribe to your videos I would have done so.

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I do not use different layers for existing demo and proposed because you have to revise each layer when you make a change to either one of them. I often keep the existing on a layer, so I have a good copy of the original building.

You can use classes to control the existing, proposed and demo walls more easily than you can with layers,

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Bugman - I think you're getting close.

I have a file of the existing, then I make a copy of that and get to work.

Almost everything (especially walls, plumbing fixtures, roofs) gets classed with either a E, D, or N appendage. everything set to 'Use class Attributes' where possible.

Existing is usually displayed white fill black lines

Demo with no fill and dashed lines

New with grey fill and black lines

Working on one layer per floor level

Walls get reclassed when they move from existing to demo. (OIP)

Sheets get the same viewports with different classes turned on or off

If I need to, I can see in one view the demo walls and the new walls.

Or an elevation that shows old roof lines and new 2nd story. (needs careful classification and maybe editing classes in the viewports)

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

This is how I have done it only adding two new classes to the VW class standard "Existing" and "Demo"

1.) Draw your existing Building in class "Existing" and corresponding layers (slabs, floors, roof)

2.) Select your Existing Objects> Duplicate > Group > re-class to "Demo" > send to back and lock

3.) Now you are ready to start clipping, deleting the existing and drawing the New in their corresponding classes in each layer

Sure you can add more classes to have more control but I have found that the simpler the easier to manage.

-JC

BTW I also do as DWorks

Edited by ElGatoWorkss
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Can you tell me what goes in the Demo layer, is that just for clients, furniture and the like?

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. Been on vacation (of sorts.)

Anyway,the intent of the "Demo" layer is to have a single design layer dedicated to all demolition work. We initially tried to do demo plans through a modified viewport of the existing floor plan, but it became too cumbersome. We found that simply copying and pasting all the existing floor objects to the demolition design layer, then "turning on" the proposed plan underneath of it, allowed us to then create a quick and clear demo plan.

This arrangement allows us to not worry about messing up either the existing or the proposed plans. If half a wall is to be removed, we simply break it at the point of demolition, and change the class of the demoed wall to the "Demo-Walls" class. We do distinguish between load bearing and non-load bearing walls, and have different classes for those walls, especially since the graphical appearance needs to be different. To make this work for us, we have our own custom wall styles which allow both the "core" of the wall and the outer lines of the wall to be controlled by the class attributes, and not assigned one specific wall component class. Most VW default walls are set up with assigned component classes, so they don't work in our situation.

I must note that the DISADVANTAGE to this method is if someone needs to make a change on the existing design layer after our demo plan is completed. This won't reflect on the demo design layer unless someone reinserts the changes onto it. We have found that this rarely happens, and is not much to worry about.

My fundamental issue with all cad products sold these days is they seem to focus on both what is currently there (existings) or what will be there when work is complete (proposed). There is little attention given to the actual building process. Ideally, I'd love for us to simply be able to take any object in the file, and assign it a "state" (existing, demo, proposed, change order, scheme A, etc.. ) That way, we don't have to create all these extra layers or classes. Given how advanced modeling is nowadays, I'd hope Someone begins to think about this in more detail...

"drip...drip...drip..."

( Not everyone speak at once ;>) )

Matt

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