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MacOS X 10.2 Causes VectorWorks to Fail


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Hello -

G4/466/512mb, VWA+L9.5.3b1, OSX10.2 (since 9/4/02)G4/466/512mb, VWA+L9.5.2, OSX10.1.5 (before 9/4/02)

This is a lengthy message, but I highly recommend that OSX users read this. I have been using OSX 10.1.x for 8 months with very few problems. In the nearly 4 years since I have been using Vectorworks, never have I had major, unrecoverable corruption of a Vectorworks file. However, a file that I have been working on for two months now is completely corrupted and unusable. Fortunately, I did a backup of our files last night so only 6 hours of work is lost. Here is what happened...

I was working on some elevation drawings that I was constructing using many VW objects and many typical VW functions including duplicate array, revert to saved, hatch, etc. I was using my HP Laserjet 4V printer to make 11 x 17 vinettes of parts of a 24 x 36 sheet. Also, I was using 'revert to saved', making changes, then 'page setup' again to make more vinettes. Suddenly, right after doing a 'revert to saved', I got an error message that read:

"One or more objects in this file have become corrupted. The file can not be saved."

When I clicked the 'okay' button, a 'save as' window opened and I saved the file to the desktop. The file it created is only 450K, compared to the original 14MB file.

When I open this new file, I get an error message that reads:

"This file is damaged - it will open with as much data as possible" In addition, the file has only 3 of the original +/- 20 layers, and it much of the information is missing from those layers.

When I try to open the original file (still +/- 14MB) I get an error message that reads:

"-39 End of file reached during read. Attempt to read file FSREAD" - when I click 'okay', the program crashes with an 'unexpected quit' error message.

I sent the original (corrupt) file to Nemetschek tech support to see if they can fix it.

Because this problem occured within a day of my installations of VW9.5.3b1 and OSX10.2, I attribute it to this major change in my system. It is my understanding that the VW9.5.3b1 update fixed a couple of conflicts with OSX10.2 and that it fixed no other unrelated (VW specific) problems. Is it possible that the "one or more objects" that became corrupted is due to something completely unrelated to the updates? I realize that VW9.5.3b1 is beta software that I use at my own risk, but given that the glitches with VW in OSX10.2 were relatively minor, I never would have expected such a major file corruption.

Until the problem is fixed, should I run VW in Classic only? Revert to starting up in OS9.2? It is my understanding that reverting to prior versions of OSX is quite difficult.

Thanks for listening and for any suggestions you may have.

d. s h a f f e ra r c h i t e c t

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Doug,

Well, we have not seen any increase in the number of corrupted file calls since 10.2 has been available. So if the cause of this was 10.2, then it has not been widespread.

Typically a file corruption problem happens when VectorWorks or the machine crashes while doing a disk operation. I'll also be the first to admit that there are a number of things that can cause VW to crash on 10.2. If I had to place a wager on the problem, this is where I would put my $.

We currently know that revert to saved causes intermittent problems on some systems. For instance, it will crash my copy of VectorWorks every time, but on another machine in testing we can't get it to crash with that command at all. All I can do at the moment is assure you that all of the crashing bugs are being looked into.

We only have a beta version available for 10.2 at the moment. If you are doing production work on this machine, I can't recommend that you use VectorWorks natively under 10.2 because of the possibility of these problems.

If you want to take this risk, you are welcome to. Otherwise I would suggest booting into OS 9, or only running VW on MacOS X 10.1 - 10.1.5 until 9.5.3 is declared final.

Matthew GiampapaNNA Technical Support

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Its fine to say just don't upgrade to jaguar but I just bought some new systems with 10.2 pre-installed. I doubt that I can downgrade easily or at all. I am starting to get very frustrated with all of these crashes. What once was one of my most stable programs is now starting to look like a toy. I can't seem to keep this thing running for more than an hour. I think I narrowed it down to it randomly crashing after using the copy command. What makes this even more frustrating is that after it crashes it will only restart up for about ten seconds before it crashes again. You can work with it or just let it sit there and in ten seconds it will crash again. The only way to use it again is to restart the computer. Luckly 10.2 on a Dual Ghz starts-up in seconds or I would be having convulsions right now. Any word on when a new version might be released.

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Howdy again -

I'm hopeful that the conflicts between OSX10.2 and Vectorworks will be worked out soon. We are also experiencing strange intermittant, inconsistant problems with 'application unexpectedly quit'ting. Last Friday, for example, a co-worker worked on a file all afternoon. This morning, he opened the file and the program crashed during a simple copy/paste operation. Now he can not get VW to stay open even after a computer re-start. Basically, he can not use Vectorworks at all under OSX10.2.

I have crashed during similar operations but always have been able to get up and running under OSX10.2.

FYI (tech support) his machine is a G3/300 with 256MB. My machine is a G4/466 with 512 MB.

Please keep us updated on progress regarding these problems.

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Man. So many ways a program can go wrong. On the whole I just want to say that the new Vworks 9.5.3b1 seems to be doing pretty well compared to past experiences with it and other cadd apps. I was one of the people who had text turning white on a previous version of Vworks after I prematurely upgraded. Kind of a bummer. Haven't sent any jobs out to print yet but it seems to be working great (knock on wood). I'm confident there's abug out there somewhere. Heh. Nothing against you guys specifically but all cadd apps seem to have them. I think I posted a glitch in the printing of a specific page in a tiled document. Ongoing small problems that seem to transend versions are the following:

?Arc break width is buggy. Likes to default to .25" even after I change it.

?Drawing Label font representation is buggy. If one selects "current font" it doesn't change the representation on the screen. Sometimes if I come back to it will be represented accurately. I forget my fix right now. A little time spent fiddling with it tends to fix it but its tedious.

All for now. Thanks for a product that's given me a lot of good document production.

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Katie -

The problem is definitely intermittant. Sometimes it wigs out, some times it doesn't. However, it will almost always crash after several cut and paste operations. Initially, the problem occured when cutting and pasting between layers now it seems more sensitive and will crash when cutting and pasting a line, for example.

To clarify, once the crash occurs once, it is then impossible to keep ANY file open for more than 10 seconds or so. For this reason, I doubt that the problem is file specific.

I will send the file on to bugsubmit for their analysis.

thanks

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Doug .. and others ...

There is a problem with programs that crash under OS 10 that use serial numbers. When the crash happens, it doesn't release the serial number back to the OS so VW thinks the serial number is in use by another computer .. when it's not really. When you experience a crash in VW, you need to restart the computer to ensure the slate is wipped clean of garbage.

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Hi Katie, (working late i see)

I would like to know more about this serial number retention, and the requirment of restarting.

80% of the apps I use, use a serial number, I haven't had to restart with them. This seems some how counter how OS X is being sold and marketed. In no way am I suggesting that marketing = truth.

This sounds like it could be a quite serious problem the way you described it. As a very early adopter of OS X and of the carbon version of VW, this somehow doesn't seem to be the experience I have hadm though since I am responsible for almost 20 other user's experiences, this is important for me to know about.

thanks...

BTW go home already! smile.gif" border="0

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Doug,

We've had reports of crashes when copy and paste operations are performed.

If there is a series of steps that is duplicatable for crashing with copy/paste, please send the file to bug_submit@nemetschek.net

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Thank you Doug for confirming my problem. I thought I was the only one. What you have described is the exact same problems that I have. The most frustrating thing is that it is intermitant. If I know a certain thing will crash it, I can usually find a way to work around it but using copy and paste is like playing Russian Roulette.

Nemetschek has got to do something about the Serial Number retention aswell. I find it simply unacceptable that I have to shut down all my other happily running apps just so that I can get rid of vectorworks garbage. Sometimes I have renderings being done in the background and I have to wait hours before being able to use Vectorworks again. Almost every program I use has serial numbers and I have not seen this behaviour on any of them when they crash.

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  • Administrator

Hi Everyone,

There is a little bit of misinformation in this thread, which I'll try to correct.

There seems to be a copy/paste crash which affects some people more than others and may or may not be related to 10.2. We have certainly heard more about it since 10.2 was released, but that may be conincidence. We are doing all we can to investigate it.

There is also a known problem which is well documented on the 9.5.3b1 release web page wherein the application will crash within the first 10-20 seconds after it is relaunched after any crash, including the copy/paste crash. The only way around this is to reboot the machine. This is caused by a networking problem introduced in MacOS X 10.2 by Apple and which they are investigating.

We are sorry that these problems are affecting your work, but unfortunately that is the price you must pay for working with the newest version of Apple's operating system. Nemetschek and Apple are both working hard to resolve these issues as soon as we can. Until then, we encourage you to incorporate whatever modifications to your work habits are necessary to avoid productivity loss, including possibly reverting to MacOS X 10.1.5.

Thanks,

Paul C. PharrCAD Software ManagerNemetschek North America

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Paul -

Can you be more specific about what you mean by 'misinformation'? Are you referring to the serial number issue raised by Katie?

I understand that the software engineers at Nemetschek know far more than I regarding exactly how Vectorworks and an OS work together. Having said that, since my shift to Jaguar I am only observing problems with Vectorworks. I am not trying to suggest that Nemetschek is simply trying to shift the blame, but perhaps this observation (symptom) will inform a diagnosis sooner.

Thanks for your efforts to clear this up.

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Katie and TiTaNiuM sAMuRai-

Thank you for the information regarding the preference file and where to find it. Are you (Nemetschek and TiTaNiuM sAMuRai) saying that trashing the Vectorworks preference file will fix the cut-and-paste/crashing bug? There has not yet been a response from Paul Pharr to my last question in this thread which might shed further light on the issue.

I hope this is the answer to our problems.

Thanks again -

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Doug,

The preference file in VectorWorks can cause all kinds of otherwise mysterious problems. Removing it will set your copy of VectorWorks back to the factory defaults and clear your serial number.

It may help with this problem, and it certainly won't hurt. At the moment, I believe that some of our engineering staff have been able to duplicate the copy/paste crash, but not consistently.

If you have not sent in the a file where you are seeing this problem. Please send a copy to bugsubmit@nemetschek.net and indicate what you did to get it to crash.

I believe Paul was trying to clear up what the actual problems are and what is causing them, that is all.

Matthew GiampapaNNA Technical Support

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We do not currently have a fix for the cut and paste/copy and paste problem as of yet.

Trashing the preferences has no affect on this problem that I am aware of. It could have a possible affect that we don't know about.

I was just commenting on where the prefs file was found.

I'm going to leave comments to Paul's post up to Paul or another senior developer.

[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: Katie ]

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When you copy and paste or cut and paste, are you using the MENU options for this, or are you using the keyboard shortcuts, or a combo of the two?

Can you duplicate the exact steps with a file to get that crash?

If so, you should send those steps and file to bug submit at your earliest convenice to aid us in tracking down the problem.

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Katie, Matthew and Paul -

Just for clarification, I will restate the problems that we are seeing:

The problems occur on both machines in our office. They are:

G3/300/256mb VWA 9.5.3b1G4/466/512mb VWA+L 9.5.3b1

Occasionally when working on a file, the program (VW) will crash ('unexpectidly quit') while doing a cut and paste/copy and paste operation. This problem is INTERMITTANT. When this occurs and an attempt is made to open the file again, the program quits after several seconds without fail. A re-boot is then required to 'fix' the problem.

Our experience is that the cut/copy paste problem occurs whether using keyboard shortcuts or the menu commands. The problem has also occured when using the 'option' key to copy an object and drag the copy to a new position.

I should add that there are other crashes that occasionally occur (far less frequently, and not related to cut/copy and paste) that then require a re-boot of the system also. For example, a few minutes ago, my co-worker Mark was creating some new layers then saved the file and closed it without quitting VW. However, while the file was closing, the application 'unexpectidly quit'. Again, when this occured an attempt was made to open the file, and once again the program quit after several seconds. A re-boot was required to move forward.

My opinion is that the problem is not FILE specific for two reasons:

1. The problem occurs with files that were newly created (while using OSX10.2 and VW9.5.3b1) and with files that were created prior to installing the updates. It has occured on all five projects that we have been working on only since installing the updates.

2. A re-boot 'fixes' the problem temporarily. If the file was corrupted in some way, how would simply re-booting the machine fix the FILE? After a re-boot the file is NO DIFFERENT than it was before the re-boot. I have sent a sample file to bugsubmit, but it seems that this might be missing the point.

Finally, trashing the preference file did nothing to alleviate the problem. It seems to be occuring just as frequently and the machines still require a re-boot.

Thanks, and good luck.

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  • Administrator

We have updated the 9.5.3b1 page at //www.nemetschek.net/downloads/vectorworks/9.5.3_page.html to include information about the copy/paste issue as well as revert to saved crashing.

There is no workaround to these problems other than avoiding MacOS X 10.2 until we can release a version of 9.5.3 which resolves them.

Paul C. PharrCAD Software ManagerNemetschek North America

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I'll add my 2 bits,

I have been having the cut and paste crashing problem, just like Doug, but I have worked around it differently. It seems if you wait 5 or 10 min. befor restarting VW the problem is resolved.

I suspect this is some wierd serial number conflict problem, and heres why. Yesterday I got pissed, the program kept crashing 5 seconds after I started it over and over, so I tried to launched in classic, but instead of a crash I got a message that my serial number was in use, so I went around the office and checked all the machines to discover what I already knew, no one had my serial nunber on their machine.

Is it possible that after this crash the system is not letting go of the Serial Number? It seems this way to me, again, if I wait 5 minutes or so everything is fine, for awhile.

G4 733384 Mb RamOS 10.2VWA 9.5.3b1Air Port to Xserver.

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