Text not scaling

[Ronin X]

Does anyone have an idea on why text in the VP Annotation does not scale? A 10 Pt letter/number in VP Annotation is 2 to 3 times bigger than the same text/dim/callout on the model layer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

[Dieter @ DWorks]

That's because text size depends on the layer scale. You can resize the text of the viewports in the advanced properties of the viewport if your text insertion points are chosen correctly.

[Ronin X]

DWorks

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that: if my model space is at 1/4" - 1'0" and I create a VP at 1/8" - 1'0" from that model space, the VP and the model are then at two different 'sizes' even thought they're both 10 pt size? And thus the Advanced Properties should be changed to make both the model and the VP annotation 'look' similar in size?

BTW - I actually tried this but found that only the text in the VP model space changed but the text VP Annotation stays 'the same'.

OR am I missing something here? Because what happens if a VP is a combo of model layers in different scale, say a plan of a site underneath a floor plan etc.? How could you possibly annotate a VP in yet another scale comprised of model layers with different scales?

Help!!! This is really a mind twister... and of course the CD's are DUE TODAY!!

txs in advance!!

[Dieter @ DWorks]

You can't make a viewport of design layers showing at different scales. I think you are mixing things up. The scale of a design layer is not the scale you are drawing in. You actually Always draw 1:1, but only view them in the scale of the design layer. A viewport shows you the objects from the selected design layers at any scale you want and has nothing to do with the scale of the design layer.

BUT texts have something 'special' in relation to scales. When you enter a text on a design layer, the text will be size according to the scale of the design layer, like you would print it. So a 10pt size text will be different on different scaled design layers. Therefore, it is recommended that you set the scale of the design layer at a scale you most likely will be printing from. If you don't print at this scale or your sheet layer viewport has another scale, it can be that the texts aren't the size you want, then you can adjust this in the advanced properties of the viewports.

The above is for texts on design layers. Text in annotations of sheet layer viewports behave differently and do not size with the option of the advanced properties.

I know it can be a mess if you didn't keep this in mind when you started adding texts, but this comes from the days when there were no sheet layers.

[mike m oz]

The best way to work is to set the Design Layer scale the same as the Viewport scale you want your plans at. That way give you the best WYSIWYG outcome. ie what you see on the Design Layers is what you will see in the Sheet Layer Viewports without having to use any attribute scaling (via the Advanced Properties settings for the Viewport).

[Ronin X]

Thanks for your time, it's been quite helpful. I get it now, but of course that means rejiggering my thinking, which brings up one last question regarding this issue.

Q - since text (including dims) is really a consistent 'size' but merely looks bigger or smaller depending on the scale of the model layer, and one really only works in 1:1 but sees the text size in relation to the scale of the model layer... in order to have an easy time of annotating, given that each model layer is in a different scale (civil/site/floor plan) - what's the Best Practice for keeping all Text sizing consistent?

I was thinking of a text only model layer, but then realized it would also have a scale, which only complicates the issue. OR is all text/dims etc best done in the VP annotation window.

Again - txs for your time.

R

[VincentCuclair]

Dimension Classes for each scale in the file, you can then show and hide each correct class in the corresponding VP scale.

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=35657&Number=175472#Post175472

Edited November 1, 2012 by Vincent C

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Just set the scale of the design layer to the one you mostly use to display it in viewports on sheet layers. And put texts that you only use for annotation once in the annotation layer of the viewport.

[GWS]

also.....you can select all the text at once in the annotation layer and resize in one go.

I often use this if I have to resize a viewport.

[Benson Shaw]

And

Viewports can be rescaled via the Scale Objects command. This way the text rescales too (enable the text scale in the command).

-B

[Jim Smith]

Plus

Advanced Properties in the OIP allows one to increase or decrease the apparent size of Text entered in the Design Layer.

We avoid almost ALL TEXT on the Design Layer & use the Annotation Layer.

An aside - We've switched years ago, and draw everything at 1:1 as we are forced to work with ACAD consultants, & this avoids much confusion & unnecessary steps.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

An aside - We've switched years ago, and draw everything at 1:1 as we are forced to work with ACAD consultants, & this avoids much confusion & unnecessary steps.

Everything is always drawn at 1:1. The scale of a design layers is just the scale at which you want to view it.

[Jim Smith]

DW,

This goes back to MiniCad, & one may still assign a Layer's scale at 1:50 or 1:48 or 1:2 or whatever. When one creates a Viewport one can then decide, based on the Viewport's requirement what scale to use. But the scale of the Design Layer is the Design Layer's Scale.

This caused us some initial problems when Viewports were introduced as we generally drew a Lot & Survey on a Design Layer (I think they were just called Layers then) at 1:100 or 1:200 and buildings were drawn at 1:50 or 1:48 depending if the project was Metric or Imperial (all are now Metric). As you know, only ONE scale can be represented on a Viewport so the first project produced with Viewports had 3 or 4 Viewports overlapping one another on the site plan Sheet.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

But the scale of the Design Layer is the Design Layer's Scale.

True, but it's not the scale you draw the content of that layer, it's the scale you VIEW the content of that layer. That's a HUGE difference and for beginners very confusing. When I teach, this is something most struggle with.

[atari2600]

Setting design layer scales seems to be a relic of the past, a genuine necessity back when VW didn't have viewports (introduced in V.11, if I recall). I don't think people would go crazy if Nemetschek simply eliminated this feature (or perhaps toggle it on/off within preferences). It seems to cause more confusion than anything else these days.

Matt

[Pat Stanford]

There would be huge outcry and gnashing of teeth if this was eliminated. Just as if the ability to have separate 2D and 3D portions of symbols.

Just because you don't use a feature does not mean that no one does.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I don't think people would go crazy if Nemetschek simply eliminated this feature

Well, they need to stay for several reasons: Text is dependent on it, You can see a 'preview' of your page-based hatches, You can see a 'preview' of your line thicknesses, ...

[mike m oz]

Matt it is much easier to get good drawing output using the Vectorworks system and having multiple 'model spaces' provides the the ability to virtual build your floors as they will be in real life. That makes building drawing and modelling much easier.

By the way Archicad also uses a Layer Scale based system. For similar WYSIWYG and modelling reasons I suspect.

[atari2600]

Matt it is much easier to get good drawing output using the Vectorworks system and having multiple 'model spaces' provides the the ability to virtual build your floors as they will be in real life. That makes building drawing and modelling much easier.

By the way Archicad also uses a Layer Scale based system. For similar WYSIWYG and modelling reasons I suspect.

Thanks Mike, I totally agree that VW's design layer approach is "more useful" than a single model space approach that ACAD users are used to. What I don't understand is why the design layers need to still be dependent on a single specific scale... any more. As Dworks said, there is value toward having a scale for the sake of "Appearance", but that is ultimately why we now have Viewports. Having experience in AutoCad and Archicad before using VW, scale was only relevant once we were ready to create documents for annotating and printing. (I sill vividly remember the uproar when Acad introduced paper space & viewports, back in Version 10 (1988). I bet there are still Acad folks out there who draw, type, and dimension everything in model space at different sizes depended upon the output scale - and move the stuff into the single print window - one sheet at a time.)

Well, they need to stay for several reasons: Text is dependent on it, You can see a 'preview' of your page-based hatches, You can see a 'preview' of your line thicknesses, ...

Yes, but why are we still setting a static "Scale" for a design layer, simply for the sake of "appearance"? I feel like we are now letting the tail wag the dog a little. When 9 point text on a 1/4" scale design layer shows up as 18 point text when viewed thru a 1/2" scaled viewport, this is totally confusing to beginners and I always spend a lot of time time explaining "why" it happens. Life would be a lot easier if 9 point text were always 9 point text, regardless of where it existed. Certainly, our viewport-based drafting system doesn't recommend putting text and dimensions in the design layer anymore, but I still feel that a lot of confusion could be avoided by making "Scale" an appearance based selection, and not subject to the design (layer) based selection anymore - (like Autocad, Archicad, Sketchup, Revit, Microstation, etc....)

Just because you don't use a feature does not mean that no one does.

Pat, setting independent design layer scales is a feature which we all must use. We can't "NOT" use it. My point is simply that it become a choice: Either exactly what it currently is (a layer dependent setting), or a general "appearance" setting, and no longer specified to an actual design layer. If it were a preference (like black background), then "Independent Scale Control" could be turned on. The fact that this question was brought up in the first place is due to the confusion it still creates for the VW beginner, even if they have had years of other CAD training.

In summary, I think that the most courageous thing that CAD companies can do is to work toward lessening the "learning curve" by constantly evaluating the overall "intent" of every tool and it's relevancy toward UI. Our carpenters still use hammers, screwdrivers, hand saws, and they are never too far away when the specific need arises. But these old tools sure don't get the same play time as the nail gun, impact driver, and table saw. My point: have the old tools nearby, but make sure they are not "in the way" of the newer tools.

If a carpenter only knows how to use a hammer and isn't willing to use the new stuff, then "everything looks like a nail."

Matt