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ChadL

Renderworks & Cinema4d

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I have been wondering this for a little while now. What is the point in owning both RenderWorks and C4D? I'll admit, I've never used C4D before so I have only read and heard what it can do. I have done some pretty remarkable renderings with RenderWorks, but if I were to invest in C4D, I don't see why I would ever use RW.

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chad,

i'm in the same boat. i'm getting useful results from rw, but less than satisfactory. its also slow...waiting on a test render as i write this.

this fall i am going to clear out some time and download a trial version of c4d. my expectations are high. i'll post on this forum what i learn.

in the mean time i'm interested in other thoughts and experiences comparing rw and c4d.

cheers,

ray

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I use C4d for renderings almost exclusively now. But there are times when I use renderworks, mostly for drawings and elevations. Renderworks gives you a lot more options for your presentation drawings, so you aren't just stuck with hidden line, dashed hidden line etc. I can do presentation drawings in artistic modes, use a "white model" render style, and so on.

The other reason to have renderworks with C4D is that textures will carry over to C4D, saving you some time with textures and mapping. When I first got into C4D, I was discouraged by the amount of texturing I had to do. Turns out that I was not very good at mapping textures, so not it's not an issue for me. If you take the time in renderworks to assign your textures, they should come in to C4D ready to go, with their textures already assigned.

C4D is hands down going to give you better renders. It's more of a commitment to learn it though. I think was NV was trying to give people with renderworks was a rendering package that didn't have so many bells and whistles that one couldn't make a rendering.

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okay...i downloaded the c4d demo about two weeks ago. my first experience confirmed what i've been reading: this is going to be hard to learn, if not impossible. after spending time with the tutorials included and others found online, especially from creative cow, i am making progess. c4d is dedicated to modeling and rendering, clearly. the impression i'm getting is these tasks can be performed at a very professional level, much higher than the level of vectorworks. but, it will require a time commitment, as grant said. i foresee that most of modeling will continue to be in vectorworks, where i can more quickly construct the 3d framework and generate better generate 2d graphics and sheet layouts, and basic, in progess renderings. however, i can see an important role for c4d in terms of fine tuning models and making more professioal looking visualizations to supplement the vw graphics. after much more self training, the next key will be to develope an effective workflow between vw and c4d. but, it will be a while before i get that far.

i look forward to sharing ideas about this.

cheers,

ray

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Ray,

The best series of polygon modelling tutorials I've seen for Cinema 4D are by ShepperdOneill on Youtube -

These explain polygon modelling very well. Even if you don't think you'll use it, its a good background to how different the modelling approach is. I've linked to the first but there are 13 tutorials in this series.

You should also know about GreyScaleGorilla - http://greyscalegorilla.com/blog/

Some of it is motion based but if you search back there are some modelling and simple animation tutorials too.

I've actually found there are lots of really good C4D tutorials online. Much moreso than Vectorworks.

Also, for the basics check out Maxon's Cineversity. You need to sign up (there's lots to access even with a free membership) but its worth checking out. www.cineversity.com

I've been learning C4D seriously for about a year now, mostly from online sources.

Kevin

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I'm sure it has a lot to do with my naivete in C4D, but for now I find accurate modeling of shapes to be easier in VW. Organic shapes, no. That's best left to C4D. There's a lot to learn online for Cinema, as Kevin said. I wish that were the case with Vw. But a lot of it doesn't pertain to me (character rigging).

I think the two together are a great combo.

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thanks, grant and kevin, for the input. yep, i'm having a hard time finding out to precisely control geometry in c4d. i imagine that--if i decide to purchase c4d--the vw would still be the primary modelling space with c4d for special refinements for visualization purposes.

but, i do look forward to exploring more in c4d. i'll report back as i do.

cheers,

ray

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Hi Chad:

+1 on all the comments so far, Renderworks should be able to help you quickly produce good renderings within VW. If you want more you have a very good and easy to use connection to C4D. Once in C4D the sky's the limit. You may continue to use RW to do renderings in VW for images that can be generated more quickly by staying in VW rather than switching apps.

There are lots of features in C4D that can help you produce really super renderings and animations, but yes they require some investment in training to learn them.

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okay, it's been a while. but, after several starts and stops--with some long pauses in between--i managed to make some progress with cinema 4d. so, i can finally make good on my promise to report back thru this thread.

bottom line: i like it! one of the biggest issues for me is creating landscapes that give a feel for the sites, without getting into hyper-realism, something more spatial, atmospheric and impressionistic. i've got a long way to go, but at least i can now make and render trees, along with some environmental quality. (see attached.)

i find that the vectorworks send-to-cinema4d function works pretty well with geometry, and simple textures (which can be easily worked in c4d.) cameras and lights i can't get to translate, but its easy to set up new ones in c4d (i'm doing outdoor, sunlight stuff right now.) and there are other import export issues that can be improved and hopefully that will happen. but in the mean time, i intend to keep plugging away at this.

some have requested that a two way exchange between vw and c4d be implemented. that would help tremendously. somethings can be quickly and better modeled in c4d, then accurately placed in a vw model, but that requires exporting and importing in 3ds format, which somewhere along the way must have some limitations. a direct back and forth would be welcome.

as for learning, i recently started using and referring to the tutorials at greyscalegorilla.com. got to give those guys a plug. that really helps with the learning curve.

cheers,

ray

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I don't like the way the textures are applied in Renderworks personally. My projects always use cabinetry, and the built-in cabinet objects are never textured properly within Vectorworks/Renderworks. If they are a solid color, theres no problem. However, a stained cabinet doesn't texture as it should.

On a raised panel cabinet door, the vertical stiles and the panel, should have vertically oriented grain. The top and bottom rails have horizontal grain. The same goes for panel stile drawer fronts. There are exceptions of course, such as in the case of modern, European styled frameless cabinets with grain matched slab doors and drawer fronts. These are handled with no problem by VW.

Because we work mostly with traditional styled cabinetry, I'd like to be able to correct the grain but cannot do so without first converting the cabinet object into a group, and then drilling down to each part. That is way too time consuming, AND you lose the ability to modify the cabinets from within the OIP.

I'm not sure if an add-on product such as Interiorcad handles the graining properly or not. I'd love to render all my projects accurately, but currently use solid color textures for all cabinetry as a (weak) solution.

I've attached a screen shot of three cabinets to illustrate my point. The two left cabinets are VW cabinet objects with textures applied. There is no way to re-map the textures, change how it is applied, or even scale it, with the cabinet objects. The cabinet to the far right was converted to a group. I then changed the stile, rail, and toe kick texture mapping and direction.

If there is a way to map textures onto the Cabinet objects that I'm not aware of, someone please enlighten me.

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This has been a long standing problem with the VW cabinet plugins, and one which should have been fixed years ago. People have been complaining about it since the PIO came out. Jim, maybe you can convince some folks that it really needs to be fixed, like yesterday.

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I am just getting into the demo of C4D, and I was wondering what C4D version does the majority of VW users use? the whole studio or Visualize?

Cheers,

Rob

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rob,

i have studio. but, i think that visualize is good enough for architecture, landscape architecture and urban design.

last time i looked, visualize did not include the mograph tools (cloner, etc.). they aren't essential for building and landscape design. however, i really like them and find them useful (at times). you can do some amazing things with them, especially when making context and background models.

cheers, ray

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Thanks for your input Ray,

The ability to do context models and backgrounds in studio would definitely be a plus.

Cheers,

Rob

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I am just getting into the demo of C4D, and I was wondering what C4D version does the majority of VW users use? the whole studio or Visualize?

Cheers,

Rob

I think it's cinerender bundle :cool:

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I use visualize and have lamented at times not having mograph for cloning. But I would say that for 98 percent of the time I'm extremely happy and have not rendered a thing in VW since I started producing workable results.

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